Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Elenia
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Elenia » Fri May 26, 2017 9:38 pm

Well done, PM, I'm super happy for you! You gave yourself a generous amount of time before you take the C1 test, right? I say give yourself three or four months where you don't worry about what plan is the most efficient or whether or not you should be using your study hours differently. Just do courses to your heart's content! You've earned it! And then after you can make and throw out native media study plans until a C1 and honorary French citizenship for your dedication to the cause of la langue francaise fall into your lap!

What I'm trying to say is: well done, cut loose and do what you want :D

(I know I don't need to say it, you'll do it anyway!)
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Xenops » Sat May 27, 2017 3:01 am

Congratulations! :D You're an inspiration for us all.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat May 27, 2017 10:25 am

blaurebell wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Altough it may have taken double the time. I guess what I'm saying is that this is not proof of efficiency necessarily, and that's worth reflecting on. It may also prove my methods work for me, but not necessarily for everyone else. Many people would give up with my approach, just as I might with theirs.


I don't really think it has taken you "double the time", since your production scores would be hard / impossible to reach with any other approach! I have gone through a 5 month immersion course up to B2 with Spanish and not a single person out of my course who started there from scratch would have reached such production scores although we were speaking every day for 3h - the problem is mainly reinforcement of mistakes by speaking beyond your level. Yeah, we would have passed, but only just about. The price to pay for speaking fluently within 5 months in about 350 classroom hours + immersion is fossilised mistakes. The fossilised mistakes then make the jump from B2 to C1+ unnecessarily hard because of all the subsequent repair work. I'm now facing progressive grammar books and FSI to get rid of all the leftover debris. I fear I might have to do FSI twice actually ...! There are no shortcuts in language learning!

And if you go the input heavy route: After 8000 pages and roughly 300h of audio with French, +70h of courses I'm already at 800h and my production is still super shaky. What comes out of my mouth is more or less correct, but it feels as if I'm trying to pull teeth out of my mouth instead of sentences. My whole plan for French is 20,000 pages read, 1000h of audio, progressive grammar books + FSI and finally output challenge. I'll end up with 2500h minimum for C1 production and I'll hopefully skip B2 entirely that way. And even after all of that I somehow doubt that I will reach your production results without more focus on grammar / courses though! And of course the only way to get to C2 is to really have the grammar down perfectly and for this you have to put in the work at some point. Basically you're doing the work for the C1 to C2 jump up front, which will make it more of a continuous progression than a jump for you!

So, maybe there are more "efficient" ways to get to B2 with much lower production scores, but you're definitely on the most efficient and effective route to C2! I wish I had your patience with courses, it would make the road a lot less bumpy!

PeterMollenburg wrote:Disclaimer: Results of such techniques only work if you have already completed 4000 hours plus of language study including a minimum of 21 courses. If feeling unwell, see your dictator... sorry doctor.


I had a particularly dictatorial English teacher in high school who made us drill grammar until we ran out of ink, literally! I call it the grammar gulag approach to language learning :D I'd like to be more of a fan, since it was super effective, but it frankly makes me lose my will to live :lol:


Interesting reflections blaurebell. Although my methods might be somewhat study/grammar heavy, 'devoid of short cuts', it still has some downfalls. Yes I spoke very well in my exam, but theres plenty I don't know. For example (red bolding my addition):

tastyonions wrote:Félicitations! Je pensais que tes efforts porteraient leurs fruits. Je ne partage pas trop ton engouement pour les cours mais tes méthodes t'ont permis d'atteindre ton but et c'est ça qui est le plus important en fin de compte.


I was not familiar with this rather basic word/expression. There are still gaps, but while speaking and writing, as expected, I don't say what I don't know (how can I really?). It's a given there will always be gaps for all of us, I know this, we know this, but my methods are not necessarily rock solid is my point. Where I drill pronunciation and read over grammar and practise it one cannot neglect the fact that I do lack exposure to native content. That does have it's draw backs- many grammatical concepts and newly discovered expressions, despite many exposures through courses feel disjointed and unnatural even at this stage.

Some others feel they've been in too much of a rush and have neglected grammar or that they should've taken their time. Why these extremes? Because we all have our preferences, ideas of what will work. In the end I guess we can all see flaws and advantages in ours and others strategies to varied degrees through biased perspectives. Perhaps the best strategy is one in which we openly and honestly recognise our flaws along the way and aim to change our strategies to iron out our flaws? Sounds like we could all take a page out of smallwhite's book. For me this means more reading and listening, for you blaurebell more grammar/courses? In the end though we're going to do what we want to do and of course motivation is a big factor for progress- we don't necessarily do what it is that we should do!

Elenia wrote:Well done, PM, I'm super happy for you! You gave yourself a generous amount of time before you take the C1 test, right? I say give yourself three or four months where you don't worry about what plan is the most efficient or whether or not you should be using your study hours differently. Just do courses to your heart's content! You've earned it! And then after you can make and throw out native media study plans until a C1 and honorary French citizenship for your dedication to the cause of la langue francaise fall into your lap!

What I'm trying to say is: well done, cut loose and do what you want :D

(I know I don't need to say it, you'll do it anyway!)


Thank you Elenia. You know me far too well. I was literally considering 12 to 18 months of courses then a C1 after a run of native content. Then low and behold I scrap that idea and come up with a balanced approach... rediculous!

Xenops wrote:Congratulations! :D You're an inspiration for us all.


Thank you muchly kind sir ;)
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Carmody » Sat May 27, 2017 10:41 am

Peter

Could you do me a favor and remind me of how many hours and years you approximate for your study of French? Did you say about 4000 hours and 5-6 yrs? I am a pretty slow learner in my French studies and guesstimate it would probably take me about that much time.

Thanks.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat May 27, 2017 11:19 am

Carmody wrote:Peter

Could you do me a favor and remind of how many hours and years you approximate for your study of French? Did you say about 4000 hours and 5-6 yrs? I am a pretty slow learner in my French studies and guesstimate it would probably take me about that much time.

Thanks.


Hey Carmody,

Take a look at the post by smallwhite at the top of this page of my log. There are a couple of links there that my provide you with some clarity regarding your question. Also there is a post half way down page 85 of my log where I answer rdearman and discuss hours studied thus far with French. It's a scary figure, but to clarify - I did many many restarts between 1997 when I started and 2013 in French (not to mention Spanish, Dutch and German - French more so). Thus the 1800 hours of French mentioned in that post to rdearman on top of the 3200 hours is a total guess and could literally be cut out because I did restart literally in 2013. It was 2014 when I really got serious though. And still I repeated a number of courses I had already completed, so the 3200 hours from 2013 to now could substantially be cut back further still... I think with 2000 hours and not too much repetition (a bit is good), decent results could be had. Furthermore it does seem to appear that I'm beyond the B2 level, but that is based on my B2 results and feedback from tutors. Another thing to add. Okay 2000 hours (roughly) could be cut back substantially if one didn't care about accent. I'm very very particular about my French accent, and I sincerely believe it has potentially as much as doubled my study hours. Although now I don't lose too much time on perfecting accent, in the early stages I spent a massive amount of time working on it when it's all added up. Also- the learning process has been slow. I spent sooo much time fiddling with flashcards. All in all this is what happens with the first language one attempts to bring up to an advanced level- lot's of trial and error.

In short roughly 5000 hours total.
But from my 'serious start' to now: 3200 hours.
Next language, I think I'll halve that time, honestly.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Carmody » Sat May 27, 2017 11:56 am

Thanks so much for the comprehensive answer. I always learn so very much from you on so many different levels.

I like especially when you mention
I repeated a number of courses I had already completed,
That is what I am doing and finding it very much worthwhile in relation to French In Action. I also plan to do it with NFWE at some point in the future. I think I learn so much by review, review, review and often forget that. I mean not just courses but also verb conjugations, idioms, and vocabulary.

Possibly my French is similar to my studies of Taichi. It is only by constant review that the material is kept fresh and polished, and the rust is kept at bay.

Ok, just a reminder to you of something that others have mentioned extensively elsewhere on this Forum and that I am sure you are familiar with: the Bow Wave effect.

https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1309&p=10100&hilit=bow+wave+effect#p10100

https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5828&p=73719&hilit=bow+wave+effect#p73719

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_wave

Since you are coming off such a splendid and intensive time of study of French, isn't this a good time for you to avail yourself of Bow Wave effect? I mean with you and kayaking, I am sure you see the effect every time you go out on the water.

Thanks again for your very empowering guidance. ;)
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby tastyonions » Sat May 27, 2017 1:27 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:Interesting reflections blaurebell. Although my methods might be somewhat study/grammar heavy, 'devoid of short cuts', it still has some downfalls. Yes I spoke very well in my exam, but theres plenty I don't know. For example (red bolding my addition):

tastyonions wrote:Félicitations! Je pensais que tes efforts porteraient leurs fruits. Je ne partage pas trop ton engouement pour les cours mais tes méthodes t'ont permis d'atteindre ton but et c'est ça qui est le plus important en fin de compte.


I was not familiar with this rather basic word/expression.

Il ne compte pas parmi les 5000 mots que regroupe mon "Frequency Dictionary of French." Mais je l'ai entendu souvent sur la radio. Il me semble que je l'ai appris "inconsciemment" de cette façon.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun May 28, 2017 11:37 am

Carmody wrote:Thanks so much for the comprehensive answer. I always learn so very much from you on so many different levels.

I like especially when you mention
I repeated a number of courses I had already completed,
That is what I am doing and finding it very much worthwhile in relation to French In Action. I also plan to do it with NFWE at some point in the future. I think I learn so much by review, review, review and often forget that. I mean not just courses but also verb conjugations, idioms, and vocabulary.

Possibly my French is similar to my studies of Taichi. It is only by constant review that the material is kept fresh and polished, and the rust is kept at bay.

Ok, just a reminder to you of something that others have mentioned extensively elsewhere on this Forum and that I am sure you are familiar with: the Bow Wave effect.

https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1309&p=10100&hilit=bow+wave+effect#p10100

https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5828&p=73719&hilit=bow+wave+effect#p73719

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_wave

Since you are coming off such a splendid and intensive time of study of French, isn't this a good time for you to avail yourself of Bow Wave effect? I mean with you and kayaking, I am sure you see the effect every time you go out on the water.

Thanks again for your very empowering guidance. ;)


Hey Carmody,

French in Action is not escaping me! It has been the course for me that started it all (actually Destinos too, which I started at the same time back in 1998) And while I've completed a lot of other courses, I've still not completed FIA, but I will, and it's now a major priority, along with completing Assimil's Using French 2nd wave (and I'll do a 3rd I believe). I only ever made it to leçon 26 in the past of FIA. This time, it's leçon 52 all the way baby, and i'll be starting where I left off on leçon 19. No point redoing the leçons i've done like probably ten times, and leçon 19 was where I left off last time. Carmody, this is where you're an inspiration to me! You completed this massive course and that's a major accomplishment. I hope to follow in your footsteps. Good thing is, it's a course with a LOT to cover - there's a lot of readings as you know that are useful to a French learner at any level. Can't wait to get stuck into it! Finally it's FIA time!

I agree Carmody on the review thing being rather useful. One thing worth noting though (and it appears you don't suffer from this affliction) is that there's reviewing and then there's restarting. I suffered from the restarting affliction for many years under the guise of reviewing - it would've been reviewing had I continued, but I'd often stop at around the same point in a course (usually FIA). Lesson is, don't stop your French journey until you reach your goal(s), because a week off can quickly turn into years!

I did join in on recent discussions on the bow wave effect, which is exactly why I was considering picking up Dutch for a while then returning to French. I decided against this in the end, but I do believe there is merit in this theory, and I will employ it at some point, in order to increase overall efficiency in whatever language(s) I'm learning. As for kayaking, it doesn't really apply. My kayak is a racing flatwater kayak - if you have ever seen those used in the olympic sprints, this is what I use. There is no bow wave, or very very little as they are designed for speed and speed alone, still I do appreciate the analogy and for most kayaks it is true. Until next time, keep on studying Carmody! You're doing a fantastic job, believe me.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Carmody » Sun May 28, 2017 4:45 pm

Peter

Just a mention to you that I am not sure you realize how inspirational you are as a teacher. You have this tendency to communicate enthusiasm, willingness to strive and yet make mistakes, as well as a sincere vulnerability. To me, you are a born teacher that any student would be proud to learn from. I am not at all surprised that your daughter does so well in her French at school. Maybe in your next life you could come back as a teacher..;)

On the topic of FIA: just to repeat, I just went through FIA roughly during a concentrated period of 8 months; for me it was a First Wave, as in Assimil NFWE first wave. I truly believe it critical, at least in my case, to not get bogged down with doing each and every exercise in the Textbook and the Workbook.

By the way, this course happens to be the favorite of Anthony Lauder as well.
See:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3f7nBvA6Ag
I like Anthony Lauder but would be interested what you think of him.

Finally, with FIA, at least for me and we each have our own path, is that I went through the 52 chapters but never completed it in the sense of finished all the exercises. For me, it took eight months; others will go faster or slower. I am merely on my second wave through and hope I have the persistence that you have so as to go through with many more Waves.

We have a poet in our country named Robert Frost who wrote a poem, Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening
. The last lines are:
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
I do a lot of walking (Scriptorium) but I also see myself as having:
Many waves of FIA before I sleep. :D

Each person needs to find their own particular path through their Woods of language learning, but for me, if I am patient and persevere then I hope the FIA and NFWE will provide me with a sound footing for continuing my language journey.

Thanks again for all your sharing.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun May 28, 2017 11:48 pm

Carmody wrote:Peter.....


Very kind words, thank you Carmody :)
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