Nótaí galaxyrocker - Ancient Celtic Languages, (Old) French, Latin, Old English

[galaxyrocker]

Wow, somehow it's ended up being three months since I last posted anything (in the log; I've been active elsewhere on the forum). Amazing how that happens, ain't it? That said, I've had to drop Japanese, which I should've seen coming. I just don't have a use for it, and the lack of structure for it (I will always hold classes responsible for getting my Irish to a level where I can maintain/learn on my own) made it easy to drop off, especially when my plans for the future changed.

Now, I really need to pick up Spanish. So much so that I might be taking a trip down to Central/South America this summer to do an immersion course if I can find a reasonably priced one (and the flight!). Why? Because I'll be working with our ESL students at the school I'm currently teaching (quite a change from a maths teacher that I currently am!). Even though knowledge of Spanish isn't required for the job, i want to do what's best for the students... and that involves picking up some Spanish with them. That said, I'm going to see what exactly their curriculum entails, and, if it's a focus on really making sure they can understand and use English,I might be soliciting some advice from y'all. Right now I'm looking at possibly using the Natural Method books with them, and paying to get some professionally recorded audio with it. Of course, it just depends on what I have to cover, their ability levels, etc.

Overall I'm excited, especially since I got a taste of working with ESL students last year when I volunteered teaching English to refugees. And, I'm hoping that since I'll have a need for Spanish I can really focus in and pick it up, at least to a basic conversational level. I also read the original How to Learn any Language, and must say it was quite interesting, though I think Iguanaman covers it better, and without the reliance on flashcards (which I absolutely can't stand).


As for Irish, I use it regularly, almost daily, on a variety of subjects. Most always typing, sadly, though I'm certainly getting grammar study and refining points. I've found a great set of grammar materials for a dialect that's part of the region I want to learn from, though it's about 30 minutes away across the bay so there are some differences. I'm thinking of possibly going through it systematically and creating some materials and testing them out with my friend (native speaker of the dialect I want to learn) and teacher (same). I really need to get back to reading, though. I went through a kick where I did like 100 pages in 3 days, but it's tapered off, just due to laziness and reading other things. I've got < 100 pages in this book, though, so I'm hoping to push through it this weekend (if not busy) and practice. I've also got a backlog of things to watch an catch up on, so that'll be fun. But Spanish does need to be my main focus, sadly.

[galaxyrocker]

And, just like that it's been four months and plans changed again. I ended up teaching maths, though I still have some Hispanic students (I believe most in our school are from Guatemala, actually; I know few are more proficient at a Mayan language than Spanish too, which is interesting), but the need for Spanish is much less pressing.

Really, though, not much has happened since April; my motivation to do anything in any language has really been down the drain. That said, I did finally (after a year and a half) finished the collection of seanchas I was reading. It was really interesting, it was just the lack of motivation killed it for me. Then, after finishing that in May, I did nothing for a good two months. Well, not nothing, as I continue to chat in Irish with a friend and on Discord, etc, but pretty damn close. Finally, about four weeks ago, I signed up for Comhrá le Chéile again, doing an advanced class. I also decided to order some linguistics books I had been interested in, that were written in Irish. These were Stair na Gaeilge, which I mentioned as being very expensive in the old book thread (I was able to find it on Abebooks for half the Amazon price; odd, considering that I figure it'd be better for Amazon to have the cheapest one on their main site) and An tSochtheangeolaíocht: Feidhm agus Tuairisc a collection of essays that works as a broad introductory sociolinguistic textbook, with many examples specifically to Irish's case.

I've only been able to read bits and pieces of them so far, but they do both look interesting and like I could learn a lot about academic writing in Irish from them. That said, something happened after last week's lesson -- I randomly picked up one of the books on the "must read" list and read 50 pages in it. Then I kept going; it was interesting, and I was enjoying reading in Irish again. When I finished that one, I moved on to another a sorta autobiography memoir book I had. It was shorter, but was written in very high-quality Connacht Irish; it even taught me a few things I didn't know (like they don't use ag rith for 'running', but ag ríocht). All in all, I read over 300 pages in Irish in a week. Quite a change considering I probably hadn't read 300 pages total in the past year. I gotta see if any of my other books are as interesting to me now. And I'm down to only needing one novel and one novella, both by the same author,t o complete my 'must read novels' collection; I'm holding out for a good 1st edition copy of the novel, to be honest; it's considered the classic of Irish literature (comparable to Ulysses) and I'd love a first-edition.

Along with all my other purchases the past few weeks, I did go ahead and buy Uzbek: An Elementary Textbook. I don't really have any intention of studying Uzbek, but the area and the language itself are interesting, so I kinda figured why not. Now it's actually got me really wanting to start it; just gotta make an ISO of the CD so I can move it to my Windows machine... Oh, and I still really need to start Spanish, and German, and maybe Mandarin again, ro French, or Japanese or Basque or ... y'all get the point; wanderlust is still there.

I'm going to include a few sections out of the memoirs I read that I found interesting (the whole thing was quite entertaining and funny, but unfortunately some of it breaks forum rules) along with a translation.

Phós mé i 1935. Phós mé Dé Sathairn agus bhí mé sa gcúirt ag an Spidéal Dé Luain. Phós mé ag a dódhéag sa ló agus ní raibh Aifreann ar bith ann an t-am sin. Tháinig muid abhaile agus tar éis rúinne a ithe thosaigh an damhsa, an ceol agus na hamhráin. Ar ndóigh bhí braon de bhainne na heasóige ag teacht ag chuile dhuine. Amuigh na gcró a bhí an damhsa agus an péaráca agus bhí bean agus melodeon aici. Bhí a raibh ann caochta ag poitín. Tháinig na Gardaí agus nuair a chuala a raibh sa teach go raibh na Gardaí ag teacht chaith siad uatha an poitín. Tháinig na Gardaí agus briseadh na jugannaí faoin urlár. Bhí an sáirsint ag iarraidh cuide dhó a thógáil lena naipcín póca (mar fhianaise) ach chiceáil duine eicínt lámh an Gharda agus gearradh é. Chuaigh Garda eile siar sa seomra agus fuair sé braon poitín i mbudéal a bhí leagtha faoi na pluideannaí sa leaba agus chroch sé leis é. An chéad rud eile fuair muid summons. Chuaigh muid siar ag Cúirt an Spidéil. Cuireadh an Chúirt siar go ceann míosa. Chuaigh muid siar aríst faoi cheann míosa agus cuireadh siar aríst í. Ach bhí sé trí mhí sular tháinig an cás chun cúirte. Nuair a chuaigh muid siar don tríú babhta dúirt an giúistís, Seán Forde, go raibh sé ag iarraidh an chúis seo a réiteach an lá sin. Leag an sáirsint an buidéal poitín ar bhord na cúirte agus séard a dúirt an gúistís leis an sáirsint nach raibh sé ag tabhairt aon sásamh d'aon gharda a bhéarfadh ar phoitín ag aon sochraid ná bainis níos mó "ach beirigí," a deir sé, "ar na stilléirí". Caitheadh amach an chúis. Sin mar a chaith mise mo honeymoon ag goil siar is aniar ag an Spidéal agus ag goil ag cúirteannaí agus ní dheachaigh glas orainn míle buíochas le Dia.

I married in 1935. I married on Saturday and I was in the court at Spiddal on Monday. I married at 12 o'clock in the day and there wasn't any Mass at that time. We came home and after a little bit to eat the dancing, the music and the songs started. Indeed everyone was having a drop of the weasel's milk (poitín, Irish moonshine). Out in the outhouses/enclosures was where the dancing and revelry was and there was a woman with a melodeon. Everyone was blind drunk because of poitín. The Gardaí (Irish police) came, and when everyone heard that they Gardaí were coming they threw the poitín from them. The Gardaí came and the jugs were broken under the floor. The sergeant was wanting to take some of it with his handkerchief (literally: pocket napkin) (as evidence), but someone kicked the Garda's hand and it was cut. Another Garda went went into the [bed]room and found a little bit of poitín that was laid underneath the blankets in the bed and he took it with him. The next thing we got a summons. We went to the Spiddal Court. Court was pushed back a month. We went again after a month and it was pushed back again. When we went the third time the justice, Seán Forde, said that he was wanting to settle the case that day. The sergeant laid the bottle of poitín on the court's table and what did the justice say to the sergeant but that he wasn't giving any satisfaction/pleasure to the Garda who took poitín froma funeral or wedding anymore "but catch", he said, "the stillers (people making poitín)." The case was thrown out. That's how I spent my honeymoon going back and forth to Siddal and going to court and we weren't put in prison (lit: and a lock didn't go on us), many thanks to God.

It was quite interesting to read that. Lots of interesting bits of Connemara Irish there that you won't hear elsewhere, and will sometimes struggle to find in a dictionary. It's also funny looking back on it as just last year poitín finally became legal to drink in Ireland, which a license being given to Pádraic Ó Griallais. Who, coincidentally, is the grandson of the author of the last book of seanchas I read and is a native Irish speaker from the same region as Máire who wrote the book (it's really a small world). And, his recipe is the same one that has been used by his family for several generations (his grandfather talks about making it in his book). It's a possibility that it could be the same recipe that was drank at Máire's wedding. Here's a little article about it. There was also a TG4 special about the poitín, but I think it is no longer online now.


Máire also talks a decent amount about how things have changed (book was recorded in 1993; she was born in 1912), specifically that nobody is going on visits to other people's houses and playing cards and just having the same events that they were. She has several reasons for this, one notated below:

Feictear dom go bhfaigheadh daoine aois mhór an t-am sin. Bhídís ar fad os cionn cheithre scóir. Bhí saol folláin acu agus bhídís ag rupáil leo amuigh sna garrántaí nó ar an bportach. Ná ceap gur sáite os comhair an television a bhídís mar tá inniu. Sén [is é an] TV sin atá ag marú leath an tsaoil -- iad crapaithe istigh ag breathnú ar na diabhail sin -- sin agus an "central heating" sin. Sin é an murdaróir is mó a casadh isteach i dteach ar bith

My translation:

It seems to me that people used to reach an old age in that time. They used to all be over 80 years old (lit: four score; she actually uses the vestigimal system here, that is still common in Connemara). They had a healthy life and they used to be tearing around outside in the fields or on the bog. Don't think that it was seated in front fo the teleiision that they used to be like it is today. It's that TV that is killing half the life -- they're gathered up inside watching those devils -- that and that central heating. That is the biggest murderer that was brought into any house.


So, blame central heating and TV for the loss of that traditional life. She also mentions talking about the púca and the bean sí (banshee). She mentions that she once heard the banshee and that it used to be common, but that it doesn't call anymore because nobody is walking the roads like they used to be and so nobody can hear it. It left and quit crying because nobody could hear it.

[galaxyrocker]

Wow. It's 2018 already. Where did the year go? And what have I been doing, not posting in the log?! Really, I haven't been doing much, and that's a problem. Thankfully, I'm part of a Discord where I can use Irish regularly, and have a friend who I chat with daily. I really need to get back into the habit of reading in Irish, but man it's hard when there's so many other good things to read in English. And then the desire to learn another language!

That said, I'm currently working my way through A.K. Warder's Introduction to Pali. I've finished the first lesson, and am working on the second currently. It's really interesting, though it doesn't teach the script. I know we don't talk about religion here, but there's a lot of untranslated Pai texts, primarily related to Buddhism, and I'd love to be able to translate them, if even only personally, one day. Plus, learning an ancient language is cool. I've also got Wheelock's Latin at my new residence, so I'm tempted to dig into that too.

But, since I'm seriously considering heading to Europe again this year, and perhaps permanently next year (school/job/however), I should maybe learn a modern European language. Might try out Pimsleur on my commute. Norwegian is tempting, as is any Nordic language, really. But Norwegian and/or Finnish would give me access to what few materials exist for North Sámi, so there's that... Oh, the choices!

Anyway, I hope y'all've done better than I have on the last half of 2017, and I hope everyone has a great 2018.

Áthbhliain faoi sheáin is faoi mhaise dhaoibh!

[galaxyrocker]

I'm happy to see another forum member who's studying/interested in Pāli. Of course, Pāli literature is almost exclusively Buddhist literature whereas Sanskrit literature is so extensive and varied, it can cater for any taste.
This is not exactly what you are looking for but hopefully, you may find them useful.
A Course in the Pali Language: Through direct study of selections from the Buddha’s discourses is based on the textbook, A New Course in Reading Pali: Entering the Word of the Buddha by James W. Gair & W. S. Karunatillake. I haven't done the course but used the textbook off and on. As implied, in each unit the book first gives you some original text, explains the relevant grammar points and then again gives another set of texts for reading. It might not be the best book to start depending on one's language background. However, after completing an easier book like Lily de Silva's Pāli Primer which is available for free online, it won't be that difficult. I listened to few minutes of the audio and unfortunately, Bhikkhu Bodhi's Pāli pronunciation is not the best but not that bad either.
Then there are a couple of online Pāli courses offered by Pariyatti Learning Center.

I'm quoting you here just so we don't fill up Josquin's log!

Yeah, the amount of (untranslated) Buddhist literature was actually the reason I started with Pali over Sanskrit, to be honest. And thanks for those recommendations, especially the course. Currently I'm using Warder's book (I bought a hardback copy from India; sadly, there's some printing errors so I've got to compare it with an online copy I've found, which works for me -- I like to annotate stuff!), which I've been lucky enough to find 3 different solution sets to, so I can easily check my answers and my work.

I have to say Pali really took me for a spin on lesson 5, though. Just the way the verb can often be left out, and how the pronouns work. It was sometimes a struggle to determine if they were meant to be used as pronouns or as determiners, for instance. I'm sure that's something more practice will work out though. Even though I'm early in the book, I'm trying to get out of the translating mode, at least working P>E, as I'd like to be able to read it fairly easily without a lot of struggle, instead of needing to translate everything.

But, linguistically, I find Pali super interesting. Like the fact that some aorist verbs still contain the old Indo-European augment (which has only survived in two modern IE languages), with really no explanation for what it does except "hey, it's there sometimes". Also the way that ca works, coming after each item in a list, but only after the first thing in the phrase. So getting something like "Ranu and prince J. and young priest" for "Ranu the price and J the young priest" was quite interesting to see. I wonder how they came about historically?

Though I'll definitely be looking through those other resources soon!



----------------


With regards to Irish, I haven't done much, apart from my usual chatting (via text) with friends. I really need to get back into reading Irish, but there's just so much to read/play/do and so little time! That said, I have been pondering about what actually constitutes a language, especially with regards to Irish.

As I'm sure you can get looking through my log, or my posts other places such as DL and Reddit, I'm pretty stickler on what I consider to be authentic and good Irish. Pretty much that of native speakers raised in the Gaeltacht traditions. I have nothing against "Urban Irish" except when people try to assert that it's just as good as native Irish, when it's clearly not. And this sometimes causes conflicts as I like to feel I'm pretty descriptivist. But at what point can we call something a different language? Sure, it uses Irish-looking words, but, quite often, UI (or Neo-Irish, by analogy with the Neo-Hawai'ian I'll mention later) is much more similar to English. This comes across in phonemes -- e.g. apart for s/d/t, there usually is a lack of broad/slender distinctions, /x/ and its voiced counterpart are replaced with what is basically /kw/ and /gw/; idioms -- e.g. *inseoidh am (literally 'time will tell') instead of is maith an scéalaí an aimsir (lit. time is a good story teller); even basic grammar -- e.g. lack of distinction between copula and bí for 'be', basically directly copying English's one verb copula.

It makes me wonder if these differences have created a new language, and, honestly, I'm inclined to think so. You constantly see stories of people who can't understand Raidió na Gaeltachta -- the radio station run by the native speakers in the Gaeltachtaí -- but tune in to Raidió na Life, Raidió RíRá or Raidió Fáilte instead. These are all non-native radio stations, and often involve the mistakes I mentioned above, thus making them 'easier' to learners. And, sadly, it seems some learners don't want to interact with native Irish; in fact, some are proud they don't view native speakers as linguistic models. So it's going to continue drifting further apart (if Irish doesn't die out first; more below). But, to me, this defeats the purpose of learning a language. Why learn one if you're not going to do what natives do and learn from them? It's their language, after all.

Which, given the differences and how these people sometimes just refuse to work with the Gaeltachtaí, I don't see much hope. Even the government-sponsored Irish organizations have been accused of this. 2018 is supposed to be 'the year of Irish', but there's already been multiple articles in papers calling it out for basically doing nothing for the Gaeltachtaí, the areas where Irish is spoken natively and still learned from the crib (though there's been discussion on if it's even possible to raise a truly native speaker there anymore; sadly I believe that the interview has gone out of date on TG4 streaming). Of course, Conradh na Gaeilge has vehemently denied this but the allegation still rings true, as noted in the responses to CnaG's rebuttal.

And the stupid phrase is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Bearla cliste (broken Irish is better than clever English; often written with grammar wrong, though I can't bring myself to do it), which is too often used as an excuse to support what is, honestly, shitty Irish. I want to encourage people, which is what the phrase is meant to do, but it's too often become an excuse for not even trying to improve...

Finally, of course, anytime I try to bring this discussion up (while still encouraging people to learn and interact with natives!) I get called 'purist' or told I don't know how languages evolve, or told we should basically forget the native speakers and the Gaeltachts, or any number of things. There's a distinct lack of discussion going on about these issues, and, sadly, it's in many ways reflective of the lack of communication between most learners and the native speakers in the Gaeltachtaí. Learners don't want to interact with them, or, if they do, they often want the natives to bend to being free lessons, regardless of if they struggle to understand the learner and thus would find it easier to switch to English. It's all really saddening, but I believe that when the Gaeltachts are gone, I'll likely give up Irish; there's nothing in it for me if they're not around. And it'll also be the end of Irish in general, as, outside of them, it is still pretty much a hobby for a lot of people, and they don't use it regularly or have a good enough command to pass on to their children. It's such as shame.


But, it makes me question if things like this are happening in any other minority language (especially the shift to a new language, even while speakers of the old one are still alive). It led me to an interesting master's thesis, titled, Tutu's Hawaiian and the Emergence of a Neo-Hawaiian Language, which details a lot of the same differences that have arisen between Irish and Urban/Neo-Irish as arising in Hawi'ian. For those of you more familiar with other minority languages, does this same thing seem to happen a lot there, or is the trend to save the language coming from more within the speech community itself?

[aravinda]

I'm quoting you here just so we don't fill up Josquin's log!...

Sorry about the late reply. Warder's book is very good and is perhaps the most comprehensive Pāli course available in English. If you haven't studied any related language before, Pāli may appear a little odd at the beginning but it's simpler compared to Sanskrit. I come from a Buddhist background, so naturally I’m interested in the language. Also, it's traditionally (and probably incorrectly) considered one of the two "mother languages" of Sinhala - so that's another reason for me to learn it. If you like Buddhist literature, you might enjoy reading Therigatha a work very different from highly ornate Sanskrit poetry or this book, Pali Buddhist Texts: An Introductory Reader and Grammar. The little Pāli I know, I learned mostly through exposure and Pāli textbooks written in Sinhala. Reading your log, I'm tempted to take up Pāli again. I only had a very vague notion of the term "aorist". In Sinhala based Pāli textbooks it is just the past tense. Having looked at it, the aorist in Pāli seems to be a mix of the (old) imperfect and the aorist. As far as I can see, the only function of the augment is to indicate that the verb is in the past tense. However, as you can already see that from the inflected ending that seems redundant. According to the Geiger's Pāli Grammar (page 153), there are some rules as to whether the augment is retained or dropped. Personally, I wouldn't bother about it (at this stage) and would just memorise the verb as it is.
If you're interested I have some other Pāli resources and recommendations. I can post them on the forum when I have some time to dig them up. As there are a few forum members studying or interested in Sanskrit, we can set up a combined study Group for Sanskrit & Pāli (which can include Vedic and Prakrits too).
EDIT:
1. I had noted your comment about Warder not teaching the script but forgot it. Actually, Pāli, like Sanskrit, doesn't have its own script. It has always been written in the script of the vernacular. Assuming you are not already speaking one of the vernaculars or not planning research specific to a particular version of the Tripitaka, in my opinion, the best path is to go with the Roman transliteration. Anyway, all Pāli texts published outside the traditionally Buddhist countries would be in that script. Then just learning to read a script such as Sinhala later is not a big deal.
2. I don't know whether you already know this. There's an audio CD that goes with the Warder book.

[galaxyrocker]

If you haven't studied any related language before, Pāli may appear a little odd at the beginning but it's simpler compared to Sanskrit.

It has already done that, in particular the placement of things like ca and pi seem to make no sense. I get the rule, but it just seems so foreign to me that it comes after the first word in a noun phrase and not the whole noun phrase itself. But, that's also part of what makes it interesting!

If you like Buddhist literature, you might enjoy reading Therigatha a work very different from highly ornate Sanskrit poetry or this book, Pali Buddhist Texts: An Introductory Reader and Grammar.

I'd definitely be interested in reading that once I get a little more advanced and reading comes more naturally to me. As for the Introductory Reader I might pick that up soon just to go along with as I advance in Warder. One of my biggest issues is always going through and looking up the vocabulary, so I really need to do something to help me memorize and be able to recall it. Exposure is probably the best, so the Reader could be great for that.

The little Pāli I know, I learned mostly through exposure and Pāli textbooks written in Sinhala. Reading your log, I'm tempted to take up Pāli again. I only had a very vague notion of the term "aorist". In Sinhala based Pāli textbooks it is just the past tense. Having looked at it, the aorist in Pāli seems to be a mix of the (old) imperfect and the aorist. As far as I can see, the only function of the augment is to indicate that the verb is in the past tense. However, as you can already see that from the inflected ending that seems redundant. According to the Geiger's Pāli Grammar (page 153), there are some rules as to whether the augment is retained or dropped. Personally, I wouldn't bother about it (at this stage) and would just memorise the verb as it is.

That's my goal, though I do like linguistics so I'll probably end up learning those rules haha. I do agree on the interpretation of the aorist. Warder sticks to using it, though he does mention it's basically a past tense.

If you're interested I have some other Pāli resources and recommendations. I can post them on the forum when I have some time to dig them up.

I'm definitely interested in more resources and recommendations! In particular, what grammar do you think is the best? I've got an Amazon giftcard and am definitely interested in getting a grammar. Would you say Geiger's is the best? I saw Kaccayana Pali Grammar Vol. 2 (the English volume) as well as Pali Grammar for Students. That said, I am looking for a fairly comprehensive one. I don't want to buy one to just turn around and have to buy another, more in-depth one later on!

Also, while I'm currently not in the search for one, if I do pursue Pali farther I'd defintly be interested in a dictionary. How do the different editions of the Pali Texts Society's compare? Or is there a better one?

As there are a few forum members studying or interested in Sanskrit, we can set up a combined study Group for Sanskrit & Pāli (which can include Vedic and Prakrits too).

I definitely like the idea! I'd say, however, that perhaps we could extend it to all classical languages? So Biblical Hebrew, Ancient Greek, Latin, Sanskrit, Pali and hell, even Classical Nahuatl if someone starts studying it. I think it would just make for livelier discussion and would be especially interesting seeing the connections between the IE languages on that list.

EDIT:
1. I had noted your comment about Warder not teaching the script but forgot it. Actually, Pāli, like Sanskrit, doesn't have its own script. It has always been written in the script of the vernacular. Assuming you are not already speaking one of the vernaculars or not planning research specific to a particular version of the Tripitaka, in my opinion, the best path is to go with the Roman transliteration. Anyway, all Pāli texts published outside the traditionally Buddhist countries would be in that script. Then just learning to read a script such as Sinhala later is not a big deal.
2. I don't know whether you already know this. There's an audio CD that goes with the Warder book.

1. That's good to know. Though it does have me wondering about the texts that haven't been translated yet -- have they been transcribed? It wouldn't surprise me given the PTS, but, even if not, I'm sure it'd be easy enough to become familiar with the scripts.

2. I didn't know Warder's book had audio. I'm not really all that interested in production (either reading or writing), but I'd still be interested in hearing it. Do you know of a link to it?

[iguanamon]

As there are a few forum members studying or interested in Sanskrit, we can set up a combined study Group for Sanskrit & Pāli (which can include Vedic and Prakrits too).

I definitely like the idea! I'd say, however, that perhaps we could extend it to all classical languages? So Biblical Hebrew, Ancient Greek, Latin, Sanskrit, Pali and hell, even Classical Nahuatl if someone starts studying it. I think it would just make for livelier discussion and would be especially interesting seeing the connections between the IE languages on that list.

Years ago, TAC (Total Annihilation Challenge) was hugely popular on the forum. It would take over the forum from December to mid February and die for the rest of the year. With the move to LLORG, people started to realize that TAC was all fluff and no substance. TAC ended and Study Groups came about as a result. Well, Study Groups also seem to get little activity. Perhaps that's a result of the very nature of the "self-teaching/self-study" that we do here. I don't know. What I can tell you is that there was one bright star in the TAC Groups of TAC 2014/2015 on HTLAL- Luso's "Team Rare". The Rare group was almost the only one that stayed active throughout the year. Yeah, Luso had to nudge folks occasionally but what I remember from the group was that it was very collegial and composed of experienced and serious learners who knew what they were doing. It was enjoyable to follow the thread.

Perhaps one of you should start a "Rare/Classical Languages Study Group" and make it as inclusive as possible outside of the existing study groups. I think you would find that it would generate quite a bit of activity and would be a good place to share resources, techniques and tips. In addition, it would be a good place to talk about and learn from frustrations other like-minded people have with learning rare and classical languages without ideal resources.

[galaxyrocker]

Iguanamon -- Thanks for suggesting the group! It's a great idea.

Josquin -- Thanks for making the group! Hopefully it'll grow and be active.


Irish

Sadly, I haven't been doing much with this. I've a book setting on my bedside table that I just can't bring myself to read. I have, however, been chatting with a friend, as usual. I'm hoping to also book a trip to Ireland (and maybe another part of Europe) this summer for an immersion course. Just waiting on that tax return to come in. It's a saibhreas na Gaeilge course, focusing on Connemara Irish in Carraroe. Hoping I'll be able to get that in!

I also want to get in contact with Dr. Kim McCone about one of his books, detailing the sound changes between Proto-Indo-European and Old Irish. It's been out of print for a while, and used copies are hard to find (it accidentally shares its ISBN with another!) and expensive. I might just have to end up emailing Maynooth as a whole though.

Pali


I've done some more lessons in Warder; I'm on Lesson 11 now. I admit some of the translating is killing me, just choosing the wrong synonym or interpreting the sentence in the wrong way. I'm sure that would be better if I had more access to context, as opposed to one off sentences, though that comes later in the book. Right now I'm just thankful for the answers I've found, which are very thoroughly annotated explaining why something was interpreted in a way and, on the English-to-Pali sections, why a certain word (order) was chosen. It's great. Now if I could just find a class similar to what Josquin found for Sanskrit...

Also, my A Pali Grammar came in this weekend. I've heard great things about Geiger's grammar, so am excited to get started. It's also been 'revised and edited', which hopefully makes it even more straightfoward (being a translation, I'm sure the revision and editing helps) and accurate. I'll probably read the section in it as I go along with Warder from here on out.

[aravinda]

Once again, a late reply.
Regarding Pali grammars, I've probably seen most of the grammars available in English (and Sinhala) but haven't used any of them to a great extent. As you mentioned, Geiger's grammar is well-regarded and has more information than most of the other grammars. However, it's not the kind of grammar you can read from cover to cover. There are few other more accessible grammars out there and some are free. I can't check my copy of the Collins' Pali Grammar for Students as it's in storage but I can recall that I wasn't very happy about it. Maybe because it was too slim (108 pages!) and quite basic but I'm not sure. Also, thank you for mentioning the translation of the Kacchayana grammar. I wasn't aware of this particular translation in two volumes. Though highly regarded, the Kacchayana is an old grammar, so I don't think it would serve your purpose at this stage.
There's a lot of resources on the net that one can access or (legally) download for free but it can take a while to find them and choose what's useful.
P.S.
I've sent you a PM.

[galaxyrocker]

So, I don't know what happened, but I've suddenly found Pāli a lot easier. I wasn't struggling as much to translate things and reading was coming easier. I put a lot of it down to a dictionary I found that allows you to type in words. It then shows similar ones, so it makes it easy to find case difference and stuff. It's come in very handy, and has made reading smoother as Warder's text doesn't have translations. here is the dictionary. It also has Pāli-Japanese/Chinese/Vietnamese/Burmese dictionaries as well. It's a damn useful resource, and I'm glad to have found it. I'm also through lesson 16 in Warder, and it looks like he's finally starting to slow down. For instance, Lesson 17 seems to review the declensions he's already covered, taking a break from other stuff. That might help too, as he was loading it on quick (of course, it makes sense if you've a teacher).

Sadly, the readers I've found aren't inter-lineal, and some don't even seem to have translations with them on my quick perusal. I'll really have to adapt these to my personal needs to improve my reading ability. Does anyone know a good source to make inter-lineal texts? Preferably online, though I wouldn't be opposed to putting them into book form (and making them available).

As to Irish, I'm speaking it, and have pretty much decided to take a trip there for a saibhreas na Gaeilge (richness of Irish) course this summer. IT's a week-long course focused mostly at advanced learners where you live with a host family and learn to speak like natives. It's also my preferred (sub-)dialect of South Connemara. I haven't bought plane tickets/paid the fee yet, as, since I'm in Europe, I kinda want to travel more. So I'm down for interesting places to spend a few days exploring on the continent or in the UK! Hopefully somewhat cheaply (yay hostels). Though that might kick in some more wanderlust that I don't need\.