Josquin's Classical Log - Graeca non leguntur

[galaxyrocker]

@galaxyrocker: Yes, in conjunction with a teacher, Learning Irish might be an unvaluable resource. On it's own, it's a bit dry and grammar-orientated.

I will certainly agree with that, and say it likely depends on a person's learning style. I like the dry grammar-oriented books. I personally think some of the old TY books are the best. And, yes, I have been called crazy before.

It's okay the book chooses a certain dialect, but I think it might be better for a learner not to specialize too much. For example, Ó Siadhail meticulously explains the phonological idiosyncracies of the Cois Fharraige dialect and gives IPA for every single word while there are other Connemara (and Munster) dialects that are much closer to written Irish.

I could agree that it is a bit too specialized, but I'd be willing to wager O'Siadhail chose Cois Fharraige Irish solely because it's perhaps the single most studied dialect academically.

Of course, you learn to speak like an actual Gaeilgeoir from Cois Fharraige, but on the other hand you miss out on Munster and Ulster Irish completely. So, I'm a bit torn. On the one hand, I think the Official Standard is a necessary evil one has to live with, on the other hand, one should strive to speak as natural Irish as possible. For a learner, I think it's inevitable that he or she will mix vocabulary, pronunciation, and maybe even grammatical phenomena of different dialects.

I do agree with the need for a standard. I just hate the current one, which isn't abstract enough in my opinion. O'Siadhail actually wrote an interesting article about it, focusing primarily on the orthography. Standard Irish Orthography: An Assessment (1981) that focuses on words like pá and trua and showing why they would have been better written as páigh and truaigh to allow for the full range of dialectal pronunciation. I think the grammar needs to be more abstracted too. Otherwise you come across what we've seen so often -- native speakers being told they're wrong for using the grammar that is natural to them. And you certainly don't want to discourage natives in a minority language... especially when there's no prestige group that actually uses the standard natively.

Also, I made a recording of myself reading a text from Irisch für Anfänger. I know my pronunciation isn't perfect (I got some broad and slender consonants wrong and my intonation is very German), but it has gotten a lot better since I started learning Irish. Enjoy!

I was able to understand everything you were saying in the part of it I listened to, so I say you're definitely doing well!

[Josquin]

SUNDAY, 31 JULY 2016

I haven't been very active lately, mostly due to lack of time. My mother's in hospital, I had to travel for business, and then there was this string of violence in Germany, which kept everyone breathless. Also, my motivation for studying Irish was somewhat low, so I ended up not doing much. I had a superficial look into the grammar of Lakota and Arabic, but I didn't really study either of them.

This weekend, however, things turned out a bit differently. I finally started studying Persian! Starting a new language also raised my motivation for Irish, so I was quite busy.

Gaeilge

I'm on lesson 30 of Learning Irish now. As I predicted some time ago, everything is only downhill now. The distribution of the grammar in this book is really strange. While you learn all forms of "bí" and how to form conditional sentences in one of the first lessons, the last few lessons were dedicated to meticulous explanations on the various ways of forming the genitive of nouns and the comparative of adjectives.

I don't really understand why all of these very detailed explanations are really necessary, but that's how Ó Siadhail wants it. Once again, the problems seem to arise from focusing on the idiosyncracies of Cois Fharraige Irish too much, but I'm not going to open that kettle of fish again.

Be that as it may, there isn't much new grammar to learn now, so I can focus on vocabulary and the readings. It may be noticed that Ó Siadhail offers a dialogue in lesson 30 that would be a good candidate for the first lesson in other textbooks. But why teach people how to actually converse in Irish when they don't even know the past habitual? [/sarcasm]

I don't know yet what I'll do after finishing Learning Irish, which seems like a realistic prospect for the near future. I have some novels and comic books in Irish, so I could dive into native materials if I feel like it. Well, we'll see.

فارسی

I finally got hold of a copy of Lehrbuch der persischen Sprache from Buske at the university library. All copies are usually permanently lent out and I didn't want to buy one yet, as the book is quite expensive, so I had to wait till the end of the semester when students usually return the books they don't need any more. Be that as it may, I finally got what I needed to start studying Persian on Friday, so I worked through the first two units this weekend.

My first impression of the book is quite good although it's not really designed for self-study. There are no translations of the dialogues and the grammar explanations are somewhat terse. I've had no greater problems working with book yet, though. During the first lessons, the Persian alphabet is gradually introduced. Also, some basic patterns like این and آن ("this" and "that"), the verbs بودن "to be" and داشتن "to have", and the negation have been dealt with until now.

My language studies are accompanied by some readings about Iranian culture and history in a book I got for Christmas. It's quite interesting to read about the cultural accomplishments of the ancient Persian empires up to the Islamic conquest and the change in culture that followed it. Also, I wasn't really aware that a lot of the most famous Islamic scholars and poets of the Middle Ages were in fact Persians and not Arabs.

In more recent times, Iran was on the best way of becoming a secular democracy if it hadn't been for the intervention of Western powers. In order to get a better bargain for the Iranian oil, the British and the Americans reinvested the autocratic dictatorship of the Shah in 1953, which consequently resulted in the Islamic Revolution of 1979. One might say that intervention really backfired...

I haven't read past the Islamic Revolution yet, but there has already been a chapter on Shia Islam, which seems to be quite peculiar. Apparently, Shia Muslims wait for the return of the Mahdi, also known as the "hidden Imam", who is some kind of Messianic figure. Most important goal of the Islamic Republic is to prepare for his return, which will mark the beginning of a heavenly kingdom on Earth. Until the Mahdi returns, all earthly government is only provisory and imperfect.

All this was rather new to me and it's very interesting to learn about a part of the world most Westerners don't know a lot about. I'm looking forward to learning more about this fascinating and somewhat mysterious country!

[jeff_lindqvist]

I have some novels and comic books in Irish, so I could dive into native materials if I feel like it.

Which ones? Was it Tintin/Asterix, An Hobad and Cú na mBaskerville? Something else? I'm reading "The Lion, the witch and the wardrobe" now (without Swedish/English help) and find it relatively easy (meaning that I lack vocabulary but still get a lot more than the gist). Perhaps I've just chosen the right book at the right time (now, after some years of semi-dedicated studies and reading two books in Irish+English, plus six comic books).

[Expugnator]

Josquin, I've used the Estonian book in the series and I could download the answer key from the Buske site maybe the Persian one is there, too. Not sure about the translation of the dialogues, it was either at the site or at the back of the book.

[Josquin]

@jeff_lindqvist: Currently, I own the following (comic) books in Irish:

• Asterix na nGallach
• Asterix agus an Corrán Óir
• An Hobad
• Cú na mBaskerville
• Eachtra Eibhlíse i dTír na nIontas
• An tOileánach
• Peig

I've heard about An Leon, an Bandraoi agus an Prios Éadaigh, but it's a little bit difficult to come by in Germany. I would probably have to order it from Ireland or buy the Kindle edition and I absolutely hate e-books!

@Expugnator: Thanks for the suggestions! Unfortunately, there are no translations of the dialogues in the back of the book and there are no downloads for this book on the Buske website. Maybe, I'll contact the company and ask if they can provide me with the translations nevertheless. So far, I've had no problems understanding the dialogues, but I'm only on unit 2... The answer key is in the back of the book, so at least I can do the exercises.

[Josquin]

SUNDAY, 28 AUGUST 2016

Dia daoibh, a chairde! Long time no see. I have been very busy recently and suffered from a little bit of emotional and job-related stress, so my time for studying languages has been very limited. Also, there was my birthday on August 17, which required some serious celebrating. Anyway, my apologies for not reporting any sooner here! As always, there's good news and bad news. The good news concerns my Irish, the bad news concerns my Persian.

Gaeilge

Lo and behold, I finally finished Learning Irish!!! I still can't believe I really did it. When I started with this book, the learning curve was so steep that I thought I'd never get through it, but now it's actually done. I'll probably repeat one thing or another, revise some vocabulary, and do some exercises, but I have worked through all the texts and the grammar. Funny remark: The last grammar point Ó Siadhail adresses is surnames in Irish. In Irisch für Anfänger, it was in one of the first lessons... Well, different approaches, I guess.

I haven't really decided how I'll continue studying Irish. It's still my favourite language and I don't want to give it up, so I might finally take the plunge and dive into native materials. Also, I could go through Gaeilge gan Stró Intermediate Level first, which would provide me with some conversational Irish and some interesting texts.

Be that as it may, I bought Asterix i dTír na Sasanach as a birthday present for myself, so now I own three Asterix books, which could get me started as far as native materials are concerned. I also noticed there is a fourth Asterix in Irish now (Asterix Gliaire), so there should be enough to read.

فارسی

While I made a lot of progress in Irish, I made next to none in Persian. I'm still on unit 2 in Lehrbuch der persischen Sprache and haven't advanced at all. I really need more leisure time in order to study several languages simultanuously. The last weeks were simply too stressful.

Wanderlust

I bought some short reference grammars for Portuguese, Polish, and Hungarian. Also, I borrowed a short reference grammar for Turkish from the uni library. I have been browsing through them for the last few days, which has been really interesting. I'd love to study all these languages, but I simply don't have the time for them. Browsing through the Portuguese grammar, I was reminded how beautiful Portuguese is and how much I love it. If I only had the time to revive it!

[Josquin]

AOINE, 2 MEÁN FÓMHAIR 2016

Dia daoibh a chairde!

Rinne me cinneadh ar ag scríobh rud éigin as Gaeilge sa mblog sin. Tá an cleachtadh uaim agus is breá liom mo chuid Gaeilge a úsáid. Ní minic go scríobhaim nó labhraím as Gaeilge de ghnáth, mar sin tosóidh mé leis anois.

Mar dúirt mé cheana, chríochnaigh mé mo chuid téacsleabhair sa mí Lúnasa agus fonn orm leabhair fíor-Ghaeilge a léamh anois. Ar dtús, beidh mé ag léamh Asterix as Gaeilge. Tá ceithre cinn agam: Asterix na nGallach, Asterix agus an Corrán Óir, Asterix Gliaire agus Asterix i dTír na Sasanach. Uaireanta, beidh mé ag déanamh aonad nó dó de Gaeilge gan Stró, ach, dáiríre, níl fonn orm ag obair le téacsleabhair a thuilleadh.

Tá na fíor-leabhair Ghaeilge ródheacair dom faoi láthair, ach ba mhaith liom á léamh nuair a bheidh feabhas ar mo chuid Gaeilge. Tosóidh mé le haistriúcháin, mar shampla An Hobad nó Cú na mBaskerville, ach tá mé ag iarraidh leabhair scríofa as Gaeilge a léamh freisin. Tá brionglóid agam Séadna agus Cré na Cille a léamh as Gaeilge, ach beidh tuilleadh cleachtaidh uaim.

Caithfidh mé ag rá gur deacair ag scríobh as Gaeilge, ach tá súil agam go mbeidh mé in ann feabhas a chuir ar mo chuid Gaeilge mar sin.

Slán go fóill!


Translation:

Hello friends!

I have decided to write a little bit in Irish in this log. I need the practice and I like using my Irish. Usually, I don't often write or speak in Irish, so I'll start with it now.

As I said before, I finished my textbooks in August and I'd like to read real Irish books now. At first, I'll read Asterix in Irish. I've got four volumes: Asterix the Gaul, Asterix and the Golden Sickle, Asterix the Gladiator, and Asterix in Britain. Sometimes, I'll be doing a lesson or two in Gaeilge gan Stró, but I don't really want to work with textbooks any more.

The real Irish books are too difficult for me right now, but I'd like to read them when my Irish is better. I'll start with translations, e.g. The Hobbit and The Hound of the Baskervilles, but I want to read books that were written in Irish as well. My dream is reading Séadna and Cré na Cille in Irish, but I'll need more practice first.

I must say it's difficult to write in Irish, but I hope I'll be able to improve my Irish this way.

See you soon!

(Corrections more than welcome!)

[Josquin]

Okay, I already found some mistakes myself. As Gaedheal92 doesn't seem to be active on the forum any more, I'll probably have to post it on Lang8 in order to get some real corrections.

Dia daoibh a chairde!

Rinne mé cinneadh ar ag scríobh rud éigin as Gaeilge sa mblog sin. Tá an cleachtadh uaim agus is breá liom mo chuid Gaeilge a úsáid. Ní minic a scríobhaim nó labhraím as Gaeilge de ghnáth, mar sin tosóidh mé leis anois.

Mar a dúirt mé cheana, chríochnaigh mé mo chuid téacsleabhair sa mí Lúnasa agus fonn orm leabhair fíor-Ghaeilge a léamh anois. Ar dtús, beidh mé ag léamh Asterix as Gaeilge. Tá ceithre cinn agam: Asterix na nGallach, Asterix agus an Corrán Óir, Asterix Gliaire agus Asterix i dTír na Sasanach. Uaireanta, beidh mé ag déanamh aonad nó dhó de Ghaeilge gan Stró, ach, dáiríre, níl fonn orm obair le téacsleabhair a thuilleadh.

Tá na leabhair fíor-Ghaeilge ródheacair dom faoi láthair, ach ba mhaith liom á léamh nuair a bheidh feabhas ar mo chuid Gaeilge. Tosóidh mé le haistriúcháin, mar shampla An Hobad nó Cú na mBaskerville, ach tá mé ag iarraidh leabhair scríofa as Gaeilge a léamh freisin. Tá brionglóid agam Séadna agus Cré na Cille a léamh as Gaeilge, ach beidh tuilleadh cleachtaidh uaim.

Caithfidh mé a rá gur deacair dom a scríobh as Gaeilge, ach tá súil agam go mbeidh mé in ann feabhas a chuir ar mo chuid Gaeilge mar sin.

Slán go fóill!

[galaxyrocker]

Okay, I already found some mistakes myself. As Gaedheal92 doesn't seem to be active on the forum any more, I'll probably have to post it on Lang8 in order to get some real corrections.

Are there many native Irish speakers on Lang8? I know last time I checked it, it wasn't that good; if it's improved, I would like to use it too. Except I have a preference for writing dialectally, which doesn't always work well.

Also, I would correct you, but I'm not 100% sure about everything, and I don't want to give bad advice.

[Josquin]

Are there many native Irish speakers on Lang8? I know last time I checked it, it wasn't that good; if it's improved, I would like to use it too. Except I have a preference for writing dialectally, which doesn't always work well.

Also, I would correct you, but I'm not 100% sure about everything, and I don't want to give bad advice.

I don't know how many Irish speakers there are on Lang8, but I was going to find out. The quality of corrections is an issue in every language (I even got bad corrections in Russian and saw horrible corrections for German), but I thought if I had a chance to find a native speaker, it would be there. I once got a very good correction by a native speaker in Scottish Gaelic, but that was three years ago before I switched to Irish.

In any case, I'd be glad if you offered me your two cents! If you're not completely sure about the correct wording, you could simply point out the things that sound dubious to you without correcting them. That would be better than nothing. I need all the advice I can get, because learning Irish literally isn't like learning any other language I've studied before.

I'm trying to write Standard Irish with preference for Connemara varieties, if that makes any sense. It's kind of a limbo between standard and dialect. I don't really think it makes a lot of sense for a beginner like me to write in dialect, but I try to avoid words and most grammar that isn't typical of Connemara. I do use the "-mid" ending instead of "muid" forms though, because it's historically correct ("muid" evolved from this ending, the original pronoun is "sinn"). Also, it just looks prettier in writing...

I've never been in a situation where I actually had to speak Irish, but in that case dialect would of course be the better choice, especially when speaking to a native speaker. But, as I said, I've never really had to put my Irish to the test yet.