2017 L4, L5, and L6

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sfuqua
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1642
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 am
Location: san jose, california
Languages: Bad English: native
Samoan: speak, but rusty
Tagalog: imperfect, but use all the time
Spanish: read
French: read some
Japanese: beginner, obsessively studying
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9248
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Re: 2017 L4, L5, and L6

Postby sfuqua » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:12 am

I'm probably going to end up the SRS challenge with 5000 cards or something. I have found that I hate doing reviews on cards I already know. When I delete them, my deck gets smaller. Oh, well.

I've slipped a bunch of cards into my learning queue that were constructed from Michel Thomas Spanish and French.

I'm spending an hour or more a day listening to Spanish and reading Spanish and then listening to French and reading French, all from the same book (two translations). The Spanish is helping me get the story and then recognize what is going on in the French. Right now I am aware of rapid improvement in Spanish and less so in French. I suspect that my comprehension in French is worse than optimal for i+1 comprehension.

It is cool what happens after you have been listening and reading in a language for a while. For me the sounds of the words almost take on a three dimensional shape in my mind, the Spanish more than the French. I'm going to keep charging into French for a while and I hope that my comprehension picks up a bit.
3 x
荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...

User avatar
sfuqua
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1642
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 am
Location: san jose, california
Languages: Bad English: native
Samoan: speak, but rusty
Tagalog: imperfect, but use all the time
Spanish: read
French: read some
Japanese: beginner, obsessively studying
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9248
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Re: 2017 L4, L5, and L6

Postby sfuqua » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:17 pm

I did my listening and reading for the same translated book, first in Spanish and then in French for an hour today.

The French popped in and out of focus. As usual at this stage, I think my biggest problem is just vocabulary. Not everything is a cognate. My French comprehension seemed better than yesterday; perhaps things will start to look up soon.

My Spanish seems like it is getting more and more in focus too.

I really like reading, and I don't mind reading while listening to an audio version of the book.

I did 50 cards from Michel Thomas today; 25 from each French and Spanish.

I can't wait for my French to improve.
1 x
荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...

User avatar
sfuqua
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1642
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 am
Location: san jose, california
Languages: Bad English: native
Samoan: speak, but rusty
Tagalog: imperfect, but use all the time
Spanish: read
French: read some
Japanese: beginner, obsessively studying
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9248
x 6299

Re: 2017 L4, L5, and L6

Postby sfuqua » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:23 pm

I've been going through a rough patch in my life the past few months. None of my problems are showstoppers, but when job, family, and health all are problematic at the same time, it can wear a person down.
Perhaps because of whatever curse I've been under, I've also been dissatisfied with my French progress. I probably was trying to break out of beginner French too fast. I've trashed my Assimil anki deck again; I really feel like I'm too advanced for Assimil, even though I also think that I would learn a lot from it.
My slow progress with French is easy to understand; I simply haven't done enough hours to be having the results that I finally had with Spanish when I switched to extensive input. Whatever one's approach, time on task is an important factor.

So I decided to give up.

Not really, I just decided to give in to my impatience and give a shot to a little experiment, and stop worrying about whether I get anywhere with French for a while.

I've described the best language learning experience of my life in other posts, but since I'm sort of trying to recreate it, I need to describe it here.

When I was learning Samoan, I made rapid progress once I realized that I actually had to work at it, and that the "magic of immersion" was hogwash, at least for me. My rapid progress stalled at about the B1 level, as so often happens to learners. After some frustrating weeks with little progress, I stumbled over a way of using word lists and intensive reading which rushed me up to the C1/C2 level by the end of my first year in country. I experimented a bit, and this is what I came up with.

I decided that being able to read and understand every word in the weekly Samoan newspaper and the Bible, would be the equivalent of being at the advanced level. I started out dividing each weekly newspaper into 5 parts (I reserved 2 days a week for beer and flirting) and then memorizing every unknown word. This meant that at first I was memorizing over a hundred words a day. I would just try to learn a simple gloss for each word as it was used in the passage, rather than learning a whole dictionary entry; this meant that words with multiple meanings showed up in several lists. I would then read aloud the corresponding pages from the newspaper, which contained the words from the wordlist, usually 3 times to clear up tongue twisters. I would review the list and sometimes reread the passage at increasing intervals. My explosive
improvement happened when I started memorizing the lists in the L1->L2 direction. I can still remember the day when Samoan started to pour out of my mouth without much effort. This was not because I had memorized a bunch of sentences, but because I suddenly could spit out novel sentences in regular conversation.

The whole approach was that I:
1)learned words I needed to to understand a particular passage
2)learned the words in the L1->L2 direction.
3)I used to words to read aloud immediately after I memorized them.

I wonder if part of the problem that many self taught learners experience with production isn't simply a lack of practice with retrieving the L2 words they need. This reflects my introspective experience with Spanish.

Perhaps something like this is true...

Vocabulary can be drilled and learned, syntax must be acquired.
Learning vocabulary in an L1->L2 direction assures that the learner can rapid produce the word in connected speech.
Increased vocabulary knowledge makes difficult passages understandable.
Difficult passages that are comprehensible lead to rapid acquisition of syntax.

Anyway, I've been drilling the daylights out of word lists from the books I've been reading.

In any case, it distracts me from the miseries of a year where survival and sanity can be considered victories.
Last edited by sfuqua on Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
13 x
荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...

User avatar
MamaPata
Brown Belt
Posts: 1019
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:25 am
Location: London
Languages: English (N), French (C1*), Russian (B1), Spanish (B1).

Long lost: Arabic and Latin.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3004
x 1807

Re: 2017 L4, L5, and L6

Postby MamaPata » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:38 am

I'm very glad you are both surviving and sane! Sounds like things are really tough - I hope it gets easier. It's really interesting to hear about your method for Samoan. I don't know if I could cope with it, you're very dedicated!
1 x
Corrections appreciated.

User avatar
sfuqua
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1642
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 am
Location: san jose, california
Languages: Bad English: native
Samoan: speak, but rusty
Tagalog: imperfect, but use all the time
Spanish: read
French: read some
Japanese: beginner, obsessively studying
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9248
x 6299

Re: 2017 L4, L5, and L6

Postby sfuqua » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:06 pm

I'm plugging along through this odd year.

I've noticed a couple of interesting things from my memorizing word lists in the L1->L2 direction.

The first thing came when I decided to add in words from some of the readily available frequency lists. I set it up so that I would only mix in words that do not appear in the book I"m reading. I immediately started having trouble with the whole process. It turns out that for me, I get help from having the words be from something I'm reading. The context from the book helps make the the words more transparent and removes ambiguity. I'm stuffing 50 to 100 new words into my head a day. I can't believe that this won't eventually have a profound impact on my language. I'm shadowing a novel in Spanish and French, a half hour each a day. I've mostly been doing listen L2/read L2 aloud; I'm going to try a half hour each of listen L2/repeat L2 aloud (without the text) tonight.

Shadowing can be brutal at highlighting mistakes in pronunciation. My French has a long way to go, and I'm finding some mistakes in my Spanish too.
3 x
荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...

User avatar
James29
Blue Belt
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Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:51 am
Languages: English (Native)
Spanish (C1-ish)
French (Beginner)
Portuguese (Thinking about it)
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Re: 2017 L4, L5, and L6

Postby James29 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:25 pm

You might like the "vocabulary builder" function on the Kindle. As you are reading your book and touch an unknown word for the pop-up translation, the vocabulary builder saves the word in the original clause of text for a flashcard. Then, when you are done reading you can go into the vocabulary builder and you have ready made flashcards with the words in the same context as the book you are reading.
2 x

User avatar
sfuqua
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1642
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 am
Location: san jose, california
Languages: Bad English: native
Samoan: speak, but rusty
Tagalog: imperfect, but use all the time
Spanish: read
French: read some
Japanese: beginner, obsessively studying
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9248
x 6299

Re: 2017 L4, L5, and L6

Postby sfuqua » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:58 am

OK, it was bound to happen sooner or later.

I've memorized 500 French words in the L1->L2 direction. I've started rereading a book I read before in Spanish, because I now have a copy of the book in French too.
The memorizing words feels pretty good, since I added in extra reviews; instead of the 1 minute 10 minutes schedule for new cards and the 10 minutes wait to review lapse cards, I've changed it both to 1 2 and 4 minutes. This means an extra review and leaves less time before getting back to a new word or a lapse word. This makes them easier to review and at the same time gives more reviews to new words or lapse words. Some people might flinch at the extra reviews, but running through a hundred cards that you are mostly getting right goes very fast...

Anyway, it was bound to happen, and it happened last night.

As I lay down to sleep I tuned into a news broadcast from France.

I started out listening and getting the gist as I usually do, and then I sort of squeezed my brain a little harder and suddenly,

I COULD UNDERSTAND EVERY SINGLE WORD IN THE NEWSCAST!

Sorry about shouting, but it was so nice. OK, this is no great C1 level achievement; the topics were familiar, and the broadcast was clearly pronounced, but it was French, intended for French native speakers, and I could understand it at a pretty detailed level.

I'm psyched.
17 x
荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...

User avatar
MamaPata
Brown Belt
Posts: 1019
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:25 am
Location: London
Languages: English (N), French (C1*), Russian (B1), Spanish (B1).

Long lost: Arabic and Latin.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3004
x 1807

Re: 2017 L4, L5, and L6

Postby MamaPata » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:28 am

Congratulations! That's brilliant! You should be very proud!
0 x
Corrections appreciated.

User avatar
sfuqua
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1642
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 am
Location: san jose, california
Languages: Bad English: native
Samoan: speak, but rusty
Tagalog: imperfect, but use all the time
Spanish: read
French: read some
Japanese: beginner, obsessively studying
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9248
x 6299

Re: 2017 L4, L5, and L6

Postby sfuqua » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:45 am

This actually is going pretty fast.
The first 60 pages or so of reading French, I thought that my eyes were going to bleed from dragging them across so many unfamiliar words. At about 400 pages or so of reading, it is starting to seem a lot more like reading. I am still pathetic, but I think that I am starting to see partial learning of large numbers of French words.
It's encouraging.
The other thing I'm doing is working through a deck of vocabulary cards in the L1->L2 direction. This feels good; it's nice when you can nail down a half known word. I added in some extra reviews for new cards and lapse cards which adds in a little over learning. I also added in a deck of cards from Michel Thomas, to review tenses and pronouns, and a deck made of different forms of verbs from the lexique frequency list. I've been having "fun" drilling weird, irregular forms of verbs along with my steady diet of new French words.
While I think the word deck is useful, but I don't think that it would be very fun or useful without my extensive reading and listening.
3 x
荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...

User avatar
sfuqua
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1642
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 am
Location: san jose, california
Languages: Bad English: native
Samoan: speak, but rusty
Tagalog: imperfect, but use all the time
Spanish: read
French: read some
Japanese: beginner, obsessively studying
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9248
x 6299

Re: 2017 L4, L5, and L6

Postby sfuqua » Thu May 04, 2017 8:48 pm

Just as I start to make real progress in French my work situation got more complex and I can't find a dedicated hour to read each day.
After the first week of June, I will be on summer vacation and I will have a chance to spend more time on language. In the mean time, I can still keep up work on my anki deck. While I don't think it is optimal, I'm pretty sure that forcing 50 words of vocabulary (and some Michel Thomas French cards) into my head is useful.

I think I'm at a stage of French where the main thing that holds back reading is lack of vocabulary. I just don't have the 5000 or so words in my head that will allow me to plod through some books I like in French.
I don't think that I really have to learn that many words before I start reading, because there are so many cognates with English and Spanish, but pumping a bunch of words into my head can't hurt. I plan to keep up the anki deck even after I start reading again.

I also need to grind the French verbal system into my head. I know pieces of it well, but there are parts that I just need to pound into my head. I made a nice little verbal drill from the Lexique frequency list, but it seems pretty hard when it is mixed into other cards. Maybe I need to do some old fashioned recitation of conjugations. I haven't done that since Latin when I was 15... Does anybody know a good source of old fashioned conjugation tables? There are probably a million on the web, but I haven't really liked the format of any I've found so far.
1 x
荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...


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