One year to Mandarin Chinese

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Re: One year to Mandarin Chinese

Postby Random Review » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:06 am

Gosh, so long without updating this, I am the worst "language logger" ever. I arrived late in China due to visa problems, the company I work for (which is proving to be a wonderful company to work for BTW!) have an extensive training period of two months, during which they ease new teachers into classes gradually with plenty of support. Unfortunately that didn't happen with me. By the time I arrived, the guy I was replacing had already left and two of their teachers had gone home (one to the US and one to the UK) for several weeks to celebrate Christmas with their families, meaning I had a full class load from my very first week here. It was really tough and massively restricted my time for learning Mandarin.

However, I did finally get started during Spring Festival and will update the log later today. Suffice it to say that since I last posted, my Spanish maintenance is going fine, I am not worried about my Spanish goal for the year, my Mandarin is behind schedule but not irretrievably so and I'm pretty worried about my German. I'll explain more in a post later today. I have also learned some interesting things (new to me at least) about what strategies and products that work learning European languages (from an English speaker's perspective, of course!) do and don't work with unrelated languages (or perhaps when they can be used). For anyone who stumbled across this page and doesn't plan to read the posts, the take home message is "Thank f*** for Pimsleur".

Finally I want to say (sorry for going off topic) that I have decided that I'll probably never learn French. As I get older, I realised a while ago that I didn't have time to learn more than a tiny fraction of the languages on my wish list, but somehow when it came to making my goals more realistic, I always kept French on the wish list and jettisoned languages that interest me more, like Yoruba, Hindi, Amharic, Russian. I wonder why now. I've come to realise that actually almost no one is impressed if you put in the time and effort to really, properly learn a language. On here, most people know more languages than you do and to a higher level; and in general life, every sod who can stammer "¿Dónde están los servicios? claims to speak Spanish (or German or French). I posted something on this in the main forum, since then I have had a brief conversation in German with someone claims to speak it, but whose German was noticeably worse than mine (and with my limited active vocabulary, I would never claim to speak German at this point!).

So, yeah, new rule: don't study any language that doesn't fascinate you, or at least (my case with Spanish) is the language of cultures that fascinate you.

It may change in the future, but here and now for me, that ain't French.

On a nicer note, I have also had a couple of conversations with a Norwegian polyglot in Spanish. He is teaching English at the same company as me and claims to speak Norwegian, English, French, Spanish, German, Indonesian and a little Portuguese. He is also learning Mandarin. I believe him, because his English is flawless, his Spanish is better than mine, his German is much better than mine (although he struggles a bit with the case endings, which he admits himself) and a few people have said they are amazed by how good his Mandarin is going after just 4 months here. Fascinating guy, not just when it comes to language learning: great teacher, martial artist, travelled widely, well read, profound thinker... He's also drop-dead gorgeous, which somehow doesn't seem quite fair given his prodigious talents. :lol:
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Re: One year to Mandarin Chinese

Postby outcast » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:18 pm

Random Review wrote:Finally I want to say (sorry for going off topic) that I have decided that I'll probably never learn French. As I get older, I realised a while ago that I didn't have time to learn more than a tiny fraction of the languages on my wish list, but somehow when it came to making my goals more realistic, I always kept French on the wish list and jettisoned languages that interest me more, like Yoruba, Hindi, Amharic, Russian. I wonder why now. I've come to realise that actually almost no one is impressed if you put in the time and effort to really, properly learn a language. On here, most people know more languages than you do and to a higher level; and in general life, every sod who can stammer "¿Dónde están los servicios? claims to speak Spanish (or German or French). I posted something on this in the main forum, since then I have had a brief conversation in German with someone claims to speak it, but whose German was noticeably worse than mine (and with my limited active vocabulary, I would never claim to speak German at this point!).



I vehemently disagree with your observation here, but don't take it personal, just difference of opinion in this one aspect. I think you are also conflating a few things.

First, and most important, it is generally not a good plan to learn languages in order to impress others. The main reason is that this will not be able to sustain most learners of a language in the hard, long road to any degree of fluency. Normally when I want to impress people with something I need to do it QUICKLY, whether is through wearing nice clothes, new hairdo, or buying an amazing wine bottle they'll love. Learning a language? How long would I have to wait for my knowledge to be good enough to impress anyone with this ability anyway? By the time I could even impress, the initial reasons for wanting to impress anyone probably are long gone. So going through the tribulations of language leaning to be preened is usually unproductive.

Secondly, I believe you have the wrong impression that almost no one is impressed with speaking a second language. You are correct in that most people (especially outside the Anglosphere and Hispanosphere), will not take the ability of bilingualism or even trilingualism as anything remarkable, since so many speak 2 or 3 languages in our world. That said, most of those people were RAISED in bilingual or even trilingual environments, so while we marvel at the almost effortless PROCESS of seeing children and their ability to soak language, it is also equally true, conversely, that such a feat is not that remarkable. Thus I am not that impressed with bilinguals from childhood. I certainly take absolutely no pride at all in speaking English and Spanish, I did not do anything to acquire this ability, it is an innate feature of human behavior and cognitive development.

The fact that mulitilingualism is somewhat common however does have the effect that most people won't give you credit for speaking a 2nd or even 3rd language WHICH YOU LEARNED AS AN ADULT, because they just are not taking into consideration the effort that takes as an adult. But only because of this fact, and not because, if they really sit down to think about it, they won't conclude it is actually remarkable that an adult achieved such an objective.

In fact, when the conversation does turn to language, most adults will think about your ability to speak other languages that you learned AFTER childhood, and marvel at your abilities: the more fluent or advanced you are, or the more "difficult" the language is, the more admiration your receive. That is a fact and I have to keep people from overpraising me all the time, because they are simply astounded that I could speak so many languages with apparent ease (they can't tell that is not the case since their level is far lower or simply cannot speak the language at all!).

So people are incredibly impressed once they sit down for a moment and analyze what is actually involved in learning a language to the point you can communicate with relative ease. But that should rarely be the main motivation to learn!

Your last point proves the above: you rightly have observed many people (probably NOT most of us here who are language junkies, but also keenly aware of language learning and the struggle), will go to a community college for an elementary class, or do a "XXXX in 3 months" course, pick up some survival skills in the L2, and then proudly proclaim to all in sight that they now "speak" XXXX! I am not here to judge those people, I think everyone should be very proud of ANY level of learning they have achieved, but you are correct in pointing out there are many "artless posers" (I say artless because I believe most people that fall in this category genuinely are not aware of how much further they have to go... even I after learning 5 languages get a bit excited after one month learning a new language, say Korean, and feeling I can already "speak" it, because I could string a couple of rudimentary phrases together). I think also that lay people will hear some very basic skills in an L2 out of a friend or relative and, either out of sincere (but naive) praise or politeness, will immediately tell everyone they know their acquaintance can now "speak" XXXX.

Finally, NEVER EVER look at people online as a touchstone of comparison. First of all, half of the internet is lies, let's face it. Second, when you go online to a community of ANYTHING, you are likely mingling with the 1% percenters in a hobby or community. For example, if you go to a body building forum, most people there are most likely the cream of the crop of body workouts in the whole country, the 1%. TO compare yourself to them is futile. Same for beauty forums, or math forums... and same for THIS forum. The people here, even those that "only" speak two languages or are learning their first L2, are probably in the top 5% of the population in terms of language abilities. So feeling blue because others here speak more languages is a useless endeavor, one is comparing oneself with the 1% of the 1% percent (anyone who can speak rather fluently 6, 7 or more languages certainly falls in that category).

Just do what you want to do.
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Re: One year to Mandarin Chinese

Postby Random Review » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:43 pm

outcast wrote:
I vehemently disagree with your observation here, but don't take it personal, just difference of opinion in this one aspect. I think you are also conflating a few things.

First, and most important, it is generally not a good plan to learn languages in order to impress others.


I have to say that my main motivation for learning anything has never been to impress anyone and I find the more accomplished polyglots on here a source of inspiration rather than a reason to feel down. I am genuinely surprised that I seem to have given that impression, I seem to have explained myself really badly. Other than that, it was a really good post and I thank you for it. I certainly agree with most of it.
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Re: One year to Mandarin Chinese

Postby Random Review » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:22 pm

So where am I after two and a half months in China?

The easiest thing to explain is the worst: I haven't had the time or energy to do any German. Between trying to get better in a job I am finding challenging and Mandarin, I don't have anything left for studying anything else. I am pretty worried about my German goal.

My Spanish is in maintenance mode, luckily I don't need to study to do this! I have listened to some stories in Spanish and I don't listen to music in English here, only music in Spanish (ideally I wish I had music in Chinese too) and I have had the odd conversation. This is totally as planned.

Mandarin:

1) Assimil

I've finished lesson 20 of the passive wave, it doesn't seem to be sticking and is taking an eternity to go through. I certainly cannot do one lesson a day with this language. So far not much sign of the famous Assimil sense of humour, but it's early days.

2) Pimsleur

I'm currently on lesson 4 of Pimsleur's level 2 and reviewing lessons 24 and 25 of level 1. No, you aren't hearing things, I am having to review Pimsleur lessons, I never though I'd ever say that! What is more, I'm having to do each lesson not once, not twice, but 3-4 times in the first place! This is not what Pimsleur is meant to be! Having said that, I'm going to give Pimsleur a glowing review. People understand me when I use language I learned with Pimsleur (I found my way home with it last night at 1am!) Not only that, they understand me first time, every time without difficulty and usually refuse to believe that I don't speak Chinese yet when I explain why I don't understand the inevitable rapid barrage of questions that follows ("but you speak very well"). As soon as I try to say anything I learned anywhere else (including Assimil), the response is very different: it varies from strained comprehension in context through laughter (ever said "big bag" instead of "to go" in a coffee shop because you got a tone wrong?) to sheer incomprehension.

3) Input

Chinese Tools: I can now passively understand up to lesson 15 (i.e. I'm finally back to where I started when I arrived in China!)
ChinesePod: working through the 'Newbie' lessons: easy but useful. After a couple of listens, I use audacity to rip the dialogue (very short) and review these quite often.
Dora the explorer: I can understand the odd phrase
The Smurfs: I can understand a bit more (maybe 10%), because I know the stories from when I watched them all in German. What the hell does 'lan2je2ling4' (sounds something like that anyway and I probably got the tones wrong) mean? :lol:
LR: I can understand (just barely) enough to follow the English text and listen to the Mandarin in the jw.org Bible stories book.

4) Characters

Not started yet.




Goals for this week: Finish Lesson 6 of Pimsleur level 2 and finish reviewing lessons 24, 25 and 26 of level 1. Finish lesson 24 of Assimil's passive wave. Passively understand up to Lesson 18 of Chinese Tools. Listen to as many ChinesePod lessons as time allows. Continue listening to music in Spanish (I already had a conversation in Spanish). German will have to continue to wait. :(
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German input 100 hours by 30-06: 4 / 100
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Re: One year to Mandarin Chinese

Postby Random Review » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:00 am

I never post in this thing, because I can never remember everything I want to say! This last few months has taught me so much (not only Mandarin but a different culture, about teaching and learning and even about Spanish, German and English phonology!).

Anyway, on the basis that it is better to update imperfectly than not at all, here is my update:

I am even further behind my goals now, but paradoxically I'm feeling pretty happy with how I'm doing. The goals are obviously only a tool.
So I'm currently on Lesson 24 of Pimsleur's level 2 and reviewing Lesson 9. The pronunciation and tones are starting to fall into place now. I hope to finish level 2 within the next 10 days or so and when I do, I won't rush straight on to level 3. Instead I will continue my "review wave" of level 2 and use the extra time to get started on level 1 of Glossika (I feel I am almost ready for it). I will definitely complete level 3 and maybe levels 4 and 5 of Pimsleur, but it won't be a main focus. I feel like Glossika and Assimil will be a more efficient use of my time.
In hindsight, I wish I had concentrated 100% of my energies on "overlearning" Pimsleur the first couple of months and then started Assimil. I am currently on Lessons 26 and 27 of Assimil's passive wave.

People here don't really understand what I'm doing. They all fill up with "useful" vocabulary (very badly pronounced) and confidently pronounce that this is what matters, because Chinese is impossible to really learn well unless you have a Chinese speaking partner over a period of years. Fairly obviously I disagree, like most on here. At any rate they find it weird that after 4 months here I know the words for "Smurf" and "Gargamel" in Chinese but not the word for supermarket.

Speaking of The Smurfs, I think they are great for language learning. The plots are repetitive but not boring and so much of the humour is visual. Sometimes it is sublimely ridiculous. I was watching an episode the other day in which Gargamel had captured them in some contraption and (as per the convention in cartoons) the bars were draw so that you could see the Smurfs and you just have to accept that a close inspection makes it look like they could just walk out of the cage no bother. We're all used to this of course, but in this episode Handy (I only know the German names for most of them, but he's the guy that makes stuff and has a pencil behind his ear :lol: ) leans out of the cage and unscrews something in Gargamel's machine so that they can escape. The thing is they had to draw him with literally everything except his feet out of the cage to make this work! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I love that kind of deliciously crazy stuff.

Similarly I have learned what a Smurf shouts to other Smurfs when being chased by Gargamel (kuài páo), which no doubt most people away from this forum would file under "utterly useless vocabulary"; but I am particularly pleased with it. The first word, I already know (it means fast), the second I'm guessing means something like "run", but importantly note that it has a rising tone. I find any kind of statement ending with a word in a rising tone quite difficult; but this kind of emphatic shouted command is so associated with a falling tone in my English-speaking brain that doing it using a word with a rising tone like that has been torture. Yet I was so utterly captivated with the delightful image of these little blue creatures running terrified from a- to them- giant man (he in turn with a ridiculous thing on his head and running in a deliciously bizarre "hands out in front" comic book fashion) all wasting their breath shouting to each other to run that it was immediately burned into my brain (I've been repeating it to myself and chuckling for a couple of days now) and I can say it with total ease. This is quite similar (I think) to something I mentioned in a post in the main forum about my youngest students all being able to pronounce "phonics" in a perfect American accent.

Through the surfs, I'm slowly getting a feel for certain other words (like the word for "hate") that are gradually crystallising in my mind (Bakunin mentioned a similar thing from his Thai input in his blog IIRC). This is quite a pleasant experience too.
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Re: One year to Mandarin Chinese

Postby Wurstmann » Sat May 06, 2017 5:34 pm

跑 is 3rd tone, not second. And I wouldn't say that words like this are "utterly useless". They come up very often.
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Re: One year to Mandarin Chinese

Postby Random Review » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:34 pm

Wurstmann wrote:跑 is 3rd tone, not second. And I wouldn't say that words like this are "utterly useless". They come up very often.


Yes, you are right, thanks. I learned that shortly afterwards (it's in Pimsleur), but at any rate, the rising part of the 3rd tone is also hard to say as a command, so my point still stands.
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Re: One year to Mandarin Chinese

Postby Querneus » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:03 pm

Random Review wrote:What the hell does 'lan2je2ling4' (sounds something like that anyway and I probably got the tones wrong) mean? :lol:

蓝精灵 Lan2jing1ling2 'blue fairies/non-Tolkian elves/sprites/spirits'. Heh.

I can totally understand why the middle one sounded like j(i)e to you though...
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Re: One year to Mandarin Chinese

Postby Random Review » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:07 pm

I'm still plugging away and will continue until I can finally get the hell out of here at the beginning of December. I more or less lost 3 months due to work (they moved a Chinese person in for a month in June and it was too embarrassing to study where he could hear me and then July and August were what they call "Sumer Course" and basically all I've done is work and sleep and eat crisps and nuts (been too exhausted to cook and have put on a fair bit of weight).

I will update this with my entire learning journey when I am far away from China. For now I will just say that I am here and will try to make the best of it for the remaining 3 months; but I hate China and really don't like the Chinese people. So now I'm in the utterly bizarre position of trying to learn a language when I actually have no wish to communicate with these people or, to be honest, ever to have to interact with anyone from the PRC ever again.

I find myself looking wistfully at Language Transfer's Swahili course, but luckily I can't download it because literally every platform Mihalis uses to provide access to his stuff (YouTube, Soundcloud, etc.) is blocked in China. :roll:

The one small ray of light is that I have hopes that it is just a PRC thing, in which case there are millions of Mandarin speakers to talk to in places like Taiwan and Singapore. At any rate the people here are the exact opposite of everything Chinese culture is famed to be: i.e. unbelievably rude*, shamelessly selfish (they are quite literally not the slightest bit ashamed of acts of incredible selfishness and will do it right in front of you), vulgar, uncouth, disgusting and have no respect whatsoever for privacy..., so unless a lot of people are full of you-know-what, I imagine and hope it might be only a PRC thing.

They are smart and hard working, though, I'll give them that.

* They are regularly astonishingly rude, but occasionally it verges on the comic. For example one time a security guard at the supermarket saw I was buying olive oil and came all the way over to tell me that she doesn't like it. I just responded that we like it in Europe and resisted the urge to respond in kind about something she liked.
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Re: One year to Mandarin Chinese

Postby Random Review » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:08 pm

Serafín wrote:
Random Review wrote:What the hell does 'lan2je2ling4' (sounds something like that anyway and I probably got the tones wrong) mean? :lol:

蓝精灵 Lan2jing1ling2 'blue fairies/non-Tolkian elves/sprites/spirits'. Heh.

I can totally understand why the middle one sounded like j(i)e to you though...


Oh, yeah, I eventually figured out in the context of this show it means 'smurf'. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Middle syllables of long words are hard, I still can't hear that tone TBH, it still sounds 2 to me (Though I totally believe you that it's 1); but how I ever thought the final syllable was 4?! :o

Thank you.
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