Tuckamore: slow growing and gnarly (Japanese, French & Thai)

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tuckamore
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Re: Tuckamore: slow growing and gnarly (Japanese, French & Thai)

Postby tuckamore » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:03 pm

As for many people, the end of the year is a busy time for me. So, the hours I can put into a hobby of any sort is minimal, language included. All things considered, I think I’ve been doing quite well in keeping up with all 3 languages this past week or so. The easiest thing to keep up is general reading in both Japanese and French. I can do this sitting among family while we each do our own thing. (I am almost half way through with Hardboiled Wonderland in both languages.) Putting on earbuds to work on listening, though, isolates me from my surroundings and borders on rude. So, I haven’t done much listening these days. The rare times I have to myself, I try to squeeze in listening for Japanese and French. I’m continuing with Hélène et les garçons and am currently working my way through reading and listening to the 3rd story in Read Real Japanese: Fiction (肉屋おうむ — いしいしんじ).

A huge surprise to me has been that I’ve been keeping pace with Glossika for Thai with this topsy-turvy week. For several weeks, I have been doing one GSR file right before bed and it is clear to me now that it has become habit! Each night this week, while I’m hitting ‘play’, I think that perhaps I should spend this time doing some active listening in French or Japanese instead. Those are higher priority languages. But, I know if I went with that mind-set, I’d wind up doing nothing and just going to bed. One of the benefits of the GSR files is that I don’t need to think of what I need to do. I just play the day’s file and repeat the Thai. If I choose to do Japanese or French listening during the same time period each night, I’d have the added hurdle of figuring out what to listen to each night. So, until the end of the holiday season, I’m sticking with my Thai bedtime habit. But, once I settle back into my normal schedule, I am going to explore ways I can make an active French and Japanese listening habit that is easy. By ‘easy’, I mean something I don’t need to plan for every week and that I feel I’m learning from without too much mental strain.

One final update for today’s log. I took the listening and reading test for French at DIALANG early last week. I know my listening is unacceptably poor compared to my reading ability. But, I have no idea where my level stands. Although I see B1, A2, C1, etc. mentioned all over this forum and have read what each level entails, I don’t have a good grasp of what these different levels represent. So, with some down time last week, I took the DIALANG test.

DIALANG Results:
Reading: B2
Listening: B1

I think my results for reading are probably fairly representative. I was mostly sure of my answers and the content of the readings. Not a lot of guessing — I knew I either knew it or didn’t. The readings were mostly very pragmatic type writings — letters, notices, etc. I’ve only been reading novels. Right off the bat, I noticed the style was different than what I’ve been reading over the last half year. But, after I adjust to the ‘style’ difference the readings seemed easier than the novels I’ve been reading.

In contrast, I think the listening results are WAY overestimated. I am a very good guesser when it comes to listening to foreign languages. It is definitely a strength when communication is needed in real life. I take the random words I think I understand and I try to conjure up the scenario where these words would fit together. But, I fully recognize that I am guessing and that I have very little proper understanding. Anyways, I think that is what has happened here. I guessed on just about every question, hardly understanding anything at the sentence level. The good news is that my listening level if you include healthy imagination may be one step below my reading level. But, unfortunately, my true level of listening is well below this. I’d like to take this test again next year to see where I stand in comparison with where I am now.
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Re: Tuckamore: slow growing and gnarly (Japanese, French & Thai)

Postby tuckamore » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:11 pm

In today’s post, I am going to gloat at how amazing my reading is progressing by alternating between French and Japanese, repeating the same chapter in each langague. This seems like the opportune time to give my impression because on January 1st, I reached the half way mark: I started book 2 of the Japanese book of Murakami Haruki’s Hardboiled Wonderland and the End of the World (世界の終わりとハードボイルド・ワンダーランド). Books in Japanese are often divided into several parts/volumes. So, a book in English with one physical volume, may be broken into 2-3 volumes in the Japanese version. So in a way, I’ve finished my first Japanese book. But, I am going to wait until I finish the entire book before I celebrate that feat. Today, I am rejoicing on how smoothly it is going.

In both the French and Japanese version, there is a hell of a lot of words, sentences, and even paragraphs that I don’t understand. And, expectantly, this is a greater reality for Japanese than French. But, what I don’t understand does not prevent me from enjoying the story. Not a bit. I minimize my dictionary use. Rarely use it for French and primarily use it for Japanese when I see the same kanji compound repeatedly, or when I know the word but cannot recall the reading (even here, it takes several appearances before I look it up). Otherwise, I’m skipping over all the unknowns. Admittedly, individual kanji, though, can also serve as an aid it getting the broad sense of word even if I don’t know its exact meaning.

The reading is going so smoothly that at the beginning I found myself often questioning whether I’m gaining anything (language learning wise) from reading the Japanese. I felt like I was just narrowed in on the phrases I already knew and ignoring the rest. But, now that I’m further on, I can see how much I am benefitting. Words, grammar and phrases that were at the peripheral extent of my understanding have become solidified. While other previously unknown words, grammar and phrases moved into the periphery. I’ve been reminded of words that I used to know but had forgotten. The amount of words that fit this category is not trivial — forgetting a word entirely or it’s reading. My katakana speed has also increased tremendously. Intensively reading 'Read Real Japanese: Fiction" is also contributing to this experiment's success. Words that I'm currently learning with intensive study are popping up and being reviewed in my extensive reading. This is happening constantly.

Half way into the book and I can already claim success.

This activity has also been unexpectedly advantageous to my French. I had undertaken this exercise to use the French reading to help me with reading in Japanese. The unexpected is how much the Japanese is helping my French! I would say my French reading skills are a solid intermediate. That means, I can hold my own, but I still miss a tremendous amount, especially certain details and descriptions. The happy surprise: sentences and passages I only vaguely understood in French, I understood better in Japanese!!! which in turn, is helping my French when I move on to the next chapter because I have a more detailed understanding of the story.

My hunch is that two things are going on here. One, I’m re-reading the same chapter again in succession. Even if I did this in English, I would pick up details I missed on the first reading. So, I’m picking up or noticing details in the Japanese reading that I missed in the French readings. Two, there are lots of vocabulary that I know in Japanese that I don’t know in French. I’ve been studying Japanese for a long, long time. I have only been studying French for 1 year. Most of the vocabulary I know in French is thanks to similarities with English. Most of the vocabulary I know in Japanese is from concentrated effort. So, French words that don’t have English cognates and are not high frequency words — I probably don’t know. For words such as these, I probably have a higher chance of knowing it in Japanese (although I may not *wink*).

And, another surprise, katakana English has helped me learn the French word for ‘paperclip’! This word, although not integral to the story (yet?), keeps popping up. If I hadn’t connected ペーパークリップ with trombone, I would have thought that there were trombones, the musical instrument, all over the place. Paperclips make much more sense.

Mid-way summary. Win for Japanese and Win for French. I couldn't read the book in Japanese with as much enjoyment without the aid of reading it in French first. In fact, I'd probably would have given up on chapter 2. And, although I could have read and enjoyed the French on its own, the Japanese enhances my enjoyment of the French reading, while also teaching me a thing or two in French.
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Re: Tuckamore: slow growing and gnarly (Japanese, French & Thai)

Postby tuckamore » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:38 pm

I’m back for another update. For some reason, this week I’ve had more time or more motivation (or more of both) as I’ve been doing more active study than usual. I need to refrain from thinking this is the benchmark for comparison in the future because I cannot sustain this pace. But, I’ll ride this wave for however long it doesn’t create stress or dread.

French

I started French in Action last week. So far, I’m enjoying it. My goal is to finish the entire course by the end of the year. If I make it drag on longer than that, I’m likely to loose momentum and interest, and then just give up. To complete it in one year, I need to study one lesson a week. Because I am guaranteed to have weeks that I cannot study, I want to get a few lessons ahead while the material is still easy and while I’m still motivated by the novelty of working with a new course. So far so good, as I’m on lesson 5 and it is week 2 of the year. Currently it takes me about 3 days to complete a lesson at 30-45 minutes per day. Right now it is mostly review, so I suspect this pacing will slow down in the near future. I do not want to burn out.

In using French in Action, I have become strongly aware of my atrocious pronunciation. I am not surprised as I have hardly tried to speak. And, I hadn’t felt a strong push to do so as I have no reason to speak right now. I knew I would have to work on it eventually, but was putting this skill to the side until sometime later. But, speaking is incorporated into FIA and I don’t want to neglect this part of the course. The speaking activities in FIA are enough to help reinforce and practice speaking, but I need something more to help drill and ‘learn’ the pronunciation. To do this, I started doing Pimsleur a couple days ago. I’m only at lesson 3, but so far it is ideal: the language is easy for me, so I can focus solely on my pronunciation. I would also like to do the FSI French pronunciation course sooner rather than later.

Japanese

For awhile now, I’ve been compelled (haunted?) to do grammar study in Japanese using Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese, but I never get around to opening the books. Starting FIA has given me a hankering for doing some concentrated grammar study for Japanese. So, I began at lesson 1 some days ago. I am mostly interested in the grammar and workbook activities, but am going through the entire lesson for completion sake — dialogues, readings, notes, etc. I think it will mostly be review, but I’m hoping going through the book will help solidify some grammar points I’m familiar with but cannot grasp without effort. I had used this book several years ago in a class where we started at lesson 7 or 8 and went to lessons 11/12(?). When I get further on in the book, I am looking forward to seeing how I do on some of the reading that I struggled with back then. Hopefully, I’ll note progress.

I’m still working through Read Real Japanese: Fiction. I’m on story 4: ミイラ — 吉本ばなな (miira/mummy by Yoshimoto Banana). This is my least favourite story of the 6, but I’m growing more fond of it as I carefully listen along with reading the text. So far, this is the only story where there are some sentence constructions that I don’t understand. Even when I see the pseudo translation, I’m not sure how to get meaning from the Japanese. In contrast, outside these sentences, this was one of the easiest stories for me to understand in listening, before studying the text.

Thai

Still plugging along with Glossika GSR. I’m on Day 66. I decided that when I’m done with the GSR files for the first 1000 sentences, I’m going to back through all the sentences using the GMS files to verify/test myself in the tones for all vocabulary, identify vocabulary or grammar-type words I haven’t internalized, smoothing out difficult pronunciations, etc. I’m tentatively planning that for the next 1000 sentences (1001-2000), instead of waiting until the end of the 100 days, I will go through this detailed study for every group of 100 sentences (or every 10 days).
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Re: Tuckamore: slow growing and gnarly (Japanese, French & Thai)

Postby tuckamore » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:06 pm

I realized something very important the other night while getting my daily dose of Japanese TV drama. My mind has become content with being able to follow the stories and plots and it doesn’t work hard anymore to catch bits that require effort. It’s a whole other level of comfort zone that I didn’t recognize. (I say ‘my mind’, because I don’t feel content! I’m not satisfied. I want to catch the bits.)

When I first started regularly and sometimes binge watching Japanese TV, I had major breakthroughs in my comprehension. But, I paid close attention. I struggled to keep up and make sense of anything. It was as much work as it was entertainment. I didn’t ‘study’ an episode per se, but I strained my ears to catch anything that I could put meaning to. As time went on, I had to work less to get the same entertainment value. But, I would still be mindful of all that I didn’t understand. But, at some point I got used to enjoying shows with minimal effort and I stopped being mindful of all that passed by incomprehensibly. There is still a lot that passes right by.

I think this scenario is great, if I were watching shows merely for entertainment. But, I’m not. I want to improve my Japanese. As soon as I recognized this, in the midst of the show I was watching, I started to listen harder and it was amazing how many more words and phrases in a sea of garble that I caught. Combine this with tens of hours of TV watching and I’m sure to start to see improvement again. After all, this is how I got from where I had been (everything was a garbled mess) to where I am now (less garble, more comprehension). I need to ‘listen harder’, but it is not hard. It is simply paying attention even when I don’t fully understand. It is being mindful of what I’m listening to. And, this is my aim from here on out. Let’s keep chipping away at that garbled mess!
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Re: Tuckamore: slow growing and gnarly (Japanese, French & Thai)

Postby tuckamore » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:22 pm

Thai

I thought I’d start off with an update of Thai this week because I did a little more in Thai that I usually do. I had a terrible cold last week. One of the worst I can remember, so I wasn’t as studious. I had time, but little energy or desire to think hard. So, in not wanting to do any of my usual French or Japanese studying, I found myself browsing through some of my Thai resources.

I’m surprised how much I still remember about reading. I hadn’t tried to read anything in Thai in over a year, and even a year ago, my reading was not that strong, only having spent a few months on it. So, I’m pleased that I won’t be starting from scratch when I eventually decide to work reading into my Thai studies. I don’t remember which are mid, low, or high consonants anymore, which is needed to know how the tone symbols work. But, for the most part I remember the sound that goes with each letter (are they called letters?). The exception is for vowel combinations. But, I didn’t have a good handle on those when I was actively learning how to read. I am hoping that when I do focus on reading again, having a solid command of 1000+ words, including their tones and pronunciations, will speed things along. When I was reading before, I had so little vocabulary. So reading was a struggle because of not only the new script and numerous rules, but also because I didn’t have a vocabulary base to support my reading.

I also watched the Level 1.1 videos from AUA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIqIrEG ... 034B1542C2). And, they were great! I understood everything. I know this level’s videos are for perfect newbies, and most anybody with no previous Thai background would even understand them. But, I really understood everything. I wasn’t just learning what they were trying to teach. I understood and knew everything they were saying. It was great to hear material I already learned used in a different context. I’ve limited myself to one source of input (Glossika), so it is encouraging to see that, at least at this basic level, my knowledge is transferrable. The videos were also very enjoyable. I caught myself laughing out loud on several occasions. I will definitely watch more levels when the mood strikes.

French

This week I reached the 1 year mark for studying French. I’m going to follow up with a post that reflects on my first year of French. Otherwise, I’m still plugging along with the same activities — French in Action, pimsleur for pronunciation practice, La fin des temps, and Hélène et les garçons. I was hoping to do FSI’s pronunciation course last weekend, but my cold put those plans on hold.

Japanese

Like French, I’m still plugging along with the same activities. I’m now on the 5th story in Read Real Japanese: Fiction, 百物語ー北村薫. It is my 2nd favourite story in this collection. Like the previous story (ミイラ), I find this story relatively easy to follow along with the audio, unguided by the text. I have a sneaking suspicion this is because the narrator is speaking slower in these two stories that she was in the first 3. Or! My listening has improved, so it only seems like she is speaking slower. I’ll daydream about the latter.
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Re: Tuckamore: slow growing and gnarly (Japanese, French & Thai)

Postby tuckamore » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:56 pm

12 months of French, a summary

This week marks 1 year since I began my French studies. I guess I started as a false-beginner of sorts because I did study French for 6 years in school. But, that was 2 decades ago and, even at that time, I couldn’t understand, speak or read any French. I am, however, convinced that my school years have greatly benefited me this year. I have a pleasing familiarity with the way French works. I don’t necessarily remember anything from school, but learning new things feels easy. I’m not quite sure how to express it, but it’s like I already have a place set aside in my head with pre-labelled folders and shelves, so I know exactly where to put each batch of new information. I’m sure this ‘ease’ of learning will wear down as I delve deeper, but, until this point, I’m grateful.

Overall, I have surpassed my expectations this year. (But, admittedly, my expectations were very low as Japanese was the frame of reference. :roll: )

What have I done in the last 12 months?

Couses:
1. Assimil. My main course and focus for the year. I finished the passive wave, and got about 3/4 through the active wave before it became too much of a chore and I stopped. It took me about 8 months to complete the passive wave. I had a couple breaks and one break was over one month long. This break corresponded to when the material was getting difficult and I had some trips. So, after returning home, it took me a while to get the motivation to get back into it. But, when I did, I went back about 10-15 lessons and by the time I got to where I had left off, it was smooth sailing again. I think the break did me good and allowed me to move forward again.
2. French in Action. I began at the beginning of the month. I’ve just started lesson 8 and this is where I think things may start to slow down.

Reading:
Total: approx. 3500-4000 pages
I typically don’t keep track of pages, but I did a quick ballpark tally of what I read. All of this I’ve read since May (maybe the very end of April?). I cannot imagine doing this in Japanese, so I’m astonished with myself. The Le petit Nicolas books really helped get me started in reading. I highly recommend them to anyone looking to move into native materials. Even for adults, I think they are entertaining. Since November, I’ve purposely sloooowed down on reading, to put more attention to listening.
Books I’ve read:
Le petit Nicolas books (5)
Journal d’un dégonflé (several, I don’t remember how many)
Arthur et les minimoys (2 or 3?)
Et si c’était vrai by Marc Levy
Vous revoir by Mac Levy (the sequel to Et si c’était vrai)
L’homme aux cercles bleus by Fred Vargas
L’homme à l’envers by Fred Vargas
1Q84 by Haruki Murakami
La fin des temps by Haruki Murakami (3/4 finished)

Listening:
Looking back, this is the main area I could/should have improved on. I needed to do more. I still need to do more. And, I’m trying to work on it. In late spring and summer, I watched all episodes of Extr@, and several dubbed series and some native French movies on Netflix, but I didn’t feel like I understood anything (with the exception of Extr@). I don’t enjoy dubbed shows very much and the French-made material was way over my head, so I’m not going to list them here. Eventually, given the choice between watching more gibberish or reading books, I chose reading. And, my proficiencies reflect this. I’m happy to have recently found Hélène et les garçons because I think it is at the right level for me. It is still mostly incomprehensible, but I can follow the stories and make out a lot of the language, and I'm already seeing improvement. At only 1 episode a day (~25 min) this, however, is still probably not sufficient. But, it’s better than what I was doing and I’ll keep trying to incorporate more throughout the next 12 months.

Output:
I haven’t tried to speak to anyone, yet. I haven’t felt a big need. But, as I’ve begun practicing pronunciation, I know I’ll be moving in that direction soon. The same goes for writing.
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Re: Tuckamore: slow growing and gnarly (Japanese, French & Thai)

Postby Carmody » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:34 pm

Congratulations and special best wishes with French in Action.
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tuckamore
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Re: Tuckamore: slow growing and gnarly (Japanese, French & Thai)

Postby tuckamore » Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:13 pm

Carmody wrote:Congratulations and special best wishes with French in Action.

Thanks, Carmody! I'm going to keep plugging away at French in Action, day by day. I was tripped up with the audio for Lesson 9's Mise en œvre, so I think things are beginning to get more difficult.
And, congratulations to you on 800 hours! That's no small achievement.
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Re: Tuckamore: slow growing and gnarly (Japanese, French & Thai)

Postby tuckamore » Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:45 pm

The kindle can estimate the time remaining to complete a book. I've never looked at this number before, but for some reason I checked it this morning. 11 hours to complete the Japanese book and 2.5 hours for the French one. I am at the same exact spot in the same book in both languages. So, these numbers are directly comparable. I read >4x slower in Japanese than in French.
First reaction: Wow! I'm so slow in Japanese.
Second reaction: At least I'm reading in Japanese.

I am a little over 3/4 through with the book. By the end of the book, I will have spent 40+ hrs reading in Japanese! (assuming that kindle's numbers are in the right ball-park and that my reading speed hasn't drastically changed throughout.)
The pessimist in me: I will have spent 40+ hours reading only 1 book.
The optimist in me: I will have spent 40+ hours reading in Japanese.

(Note to self: Never make this comparison between Japanese and English ;) )
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Re: Tuckamore: slow growing and gnarly (Japanese, French & Thai)

Postby tuckamore » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:39 pm

Language study plodded right along last week.

Japanese

I’m finishing up the 5th story in Read Real Japanese: Fiction. There is only one story left and it is only two pages. So, I should be finished soon. I’ve gotten a tremendous amount out of this book, especially now that I’m using the audio so much. Years ago, I had gone through the text in detail, but didn’t use the audio at all. What a shame! Next week, when I’m done, I’ll probably write a brief review of what I particularly like about it, as well as how I was studying with it. Now, I’m starting to think about what to do next.

First up, what do I do with the pile of vocabulary that I’ve been writing down as I go through each story? Do I do anything with it? Do I use Anki? I was a devoted user of Anki for a long while and I give Anki much credit for getting me to where I am today with Japanese. But, I got tired of the ‘daily pressure’ and wasn’t planning on using Anki anytime soon. But…. I’m reconsidering. I have lots of ideas in how I’d like to use Anki with this vocabulary list. But, I’m not sure my ideas are realistic. I’ll write more on this later.

Second, in December, I had said that I would study a drama using substudy after finishing Read Real Japanese. So, I could go back to to working with the drama I was doing back in November. Or, I could move onto Read Real Japanese: Essays. I had also read this book years ago, and it was much more challenging than the Fiction volume. I’m leaning towards working with a drama for change of pace. If I have a change of heart with Anki, I could SRS the drama in Anki instead of using the review feature, as I was doing in November. Hmmmm….decisions.

French

I don’t feel like I’ve been putting a lot of effort into French, but I am already on Lesson 10 of French in Action so I must be doing something.

I have scrapped using Alex Leroc for intensive listening. The narrator had a very deep voice. A nice voice, but listening to it intently was not helping me the way I had intended. I’m realizing in working with Pimsleur and French in Action that I don’t internalize or connect (or something along those lines) to deeper, gruffer male voices. For example, in Pimsleur and French in Action, I have a much easier time repeating after the female voices on the recordings. I can understand the male voices perfectly, but I’m not internalizing their speech as well as I do with the female voices. Capretz’ voice in French in Action is noticeable harder than the Pimsleur male voice. So, recognizing this, I went looking for an audiobook with a female voice. I would prefer a book that I’ve already read in French, but on Audible all those books are narrated by men. So, I’m now thinking about a book by Amélie Nothomb. I haven’t made any decisions, yet, and I’m not sure if I will just read along with the text or intently study the audio and text. More decisions.

Thai

Glossika describes something about their GSR files having finer spaced repetition patterns within a larger spaced repetition pattern. As I’m nearing the end of the first 1000 sentences, I’m starting to understand what this means. and everything really seems to be solidifying a bit more. I want to review these 1000 sentences before moving on to the next batch, so I’ve been exploring ways I want to do this.

Well, seems like I have a lot of planning going on for all 3 languages.
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