Japanese from scratch in 4 months

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Carles
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Japanese from scratch in 4 months

Postby Carles » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:53 am

Hello Language Learners, it has been far too long since I last posted here, but I wanted to start a new log (one I definitely intend to stick to) on learning Japanese. I am planning a short trip to Tokyo in March and so I decided to learn Japanese to a decent enough level (good enough to not have to resort to English).

It will basically be a pleasure trip, so the context will be touristic. I want to be able to hold basic conversations with the locals, but I also want to be able to go into deeper and more interesting subjects if I desire to do so. I also do not want to be totally lost with signs and menus, so I will need to read basic things too.

I started yesterday, and unfortunately I do not have as much time per day as I would like to. I started using Pimsleur, I am already in lesson 7, I will start doing one lesson a day. I also started Assimil Japanese with ease, Volume 1 (I do not have the new Le Japonais, would you recommend it over the old one?). I started learning the Hiragana characters, and I'm doing pretty well, after I finish them I will continue with the Katakana ones. I also started using Remembering the Kanji, and I have already learned the first 20, I expect to reach 140 by Sunday and then continue learning 20 every day. I am planning to add Michel Thomas too, and I am also considering to complement all of this with A Guide to Japanese Grammar by Tae Kim. What do you think of it? Is this a sound plan? Would you change anything? How attainable is it to reach a good enough level in Japanese in 4 months?
Last edited by Carles on Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pimsleur Japanese I: 7 / 30
Remembering the Kanji: 20 / 2200

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Re: Japanese from scratch in 4 months

Postby Elenia » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:18 pm

Given that all the languages I've learnt use the Latin alphabet and are basically variations on a theme, and also given the fact that I have never tried to learn a language to any level of proficiency in such a short time or for specific tourist purposes, you can take my advice with as liberal a pinch of salt as you wish.

Caveats out of the way...

I would say you're trying to spread your focus to thin in too short a space of time. I won't say what I think is and isn't achievable in the time frame you've got (see above) but I think you should start off covering the basics. I would focus more on listening than reading, if I were you. It's one thing to be able to speak and be understood. It's often another thing entirely to understand the response. This is pretty basic advice, but I felt the effects of this in practice a few weeks ago for a language I have been learning for a long time in which my spoken comprehension is actually quite good. Start listening to native level media right now in addition to your course audio, just to get used to the sounds. If at all possible, get a tutor or a language exchange partner a bit later on to practice example dialogues with.

As for reading: in your place, I'd focus on being able to read menus and signs. Learn to recognise, pronounce and understand your favourite food names, and also the foods or ingredients you want to avoid. Learn the most common road and shop signs - or whatever signs you think you're most likely to come across in the course of your visit. I wouldn't cut out learning how to read entirely as being able to read can be a massive asset when learning a language*. But as you have specific goals, that's what I'd suggest you work on first. Good luck!

*Although it certainly isn't necessary for successful language learning - see Bakunin's log!
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Re: Japanese from scratch in 4 months

Postby Marais » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:26 pm

How many hours a day are you putting in?

To be blunt - language courses will not prepare you for conversations of any worth because they are too limited in scope. They may prime you for the grammar etc but with a language so different from your others you're not going to have enough time to let the language assimilate in your brain.

You will probably be able to express yourself on certain topics but 4 months isn't enough time to understand what will come back at you.

If your goal was Catalan or Italian, i would say you'd have a very good chance of conversation with the natives just because of your other languages and the fact that you know how to learn languages already.

I'd just do as much as you can, read and listen a TONNE and supplement with your courses to learn phrases etc and don't worry about it. You'll do however well you do and then maybe your trip will give you the motivation to continue afterwards.
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Re: Japanese from scratch in 4 months

Postby stelingo » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:33 pm

I would recommend http://www.yesjapan.com
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Re: Japanese from scratch in 4 months

Postby Jimjam » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:09 am

If you're only planning a short tourist trip and don't really have plans to continue with it afterwards then I would probably suggest cutting back on kanji. It doesn't hurt to learn the basics but you definitely won't need to know the entire amount that heisig teaches. Make sure your katakana is very strong as you will use it everywhere, especially on menus and in shops, and the same with hiragana.
The rest of the plan sounds pretty solid for getting to a basic conversational level in that time. While I've never used assimil, pimsleur, or Michel Thomas for Japanese, they should definitely do what you want them to, though i'm not sure how they handle tourist situations like ordering in restaurants, and hotel reservations. You probably could use just 1 or 2 of them instead of all 3 as it seems like a little overkill for a tourist visit. Tae Kim is a good choice for a grammar supplement to go with the courses, especially assimil as it is so light on grammar.

Of course, if you plan to continue your studies afterwards, or you would prefer to just learn as much as you can, then please do so by all means.
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Re: Japanese from scratch in 4 months

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:57 pm

I don't see Khatzumoto/All Japanese All The Time mentioned anywhere in the thread - http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/

His writing style isn't for everyone (nor is his dedication), but here's his own account of how far he reached in the first 18 months:
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/bl ... 18-months/
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Carles
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Re: Japanese from scratch in 4 months

Postby Carles » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:31 am

Thank you all, I am glad you have replied to my log, it makes me feel I am not alone! and it also increases my motivation. Unfortunately I did not have enough time to reply last week, but here I am replying to each of you. Before I do I would like to say that I am spending 1,5 and 2 hours a day during the week. During the past weekend I spent around 5 hours on Saturday and Sunday. Now, this is what I have accomplished so far:
Pimsleur: Today I did lesson 9th of Japanese I.
Assimil: Today I finished lesson 9th of the first volume.
Michel Thomas: this weekend I listened to most of it, specifically I listened the whole Foundation Course (8 out of 8), and the first CD of the Advanced level (1 out of 4). This next weekend I will listen to the rest of the CDs of the Advanced course. I have liked it very much, but I have always liked Michel Thomas courses :)
Remembering the Kanji: I have learned 30. But I have stopped so I focus on the Kana first. I will resume on December.
Remembering the Kana: I am using this now, and I like it very much.
Linguaphone Japanese: I have not used it so far, not sure if I should try to use it right now, since I don't have enough time.

Elenia wrote:I would say you're trying to spread your focus to thin in too short a space of time.

Hello Elena, thank you for your reply. I think you do have a point, and I have stopped learning kanji for now, I want to get a better grasp of basic grammar and kana first. I think I will resume my learning of kanji in December.
Elenia wrote:I won't say what I think is and isn't achievable in the time frame you've got (see above) but I think you should start off covering the basics. I would focus more on listening than reading, if I were you. It's one thing to be able to speak and be understood. It's often another thing entirely to understand the response. This is pretty basic advice, but I felt the effects of this in practice a few weeks ago for a language I have been learning for a long time in which my spoken comprehension is actually quite good. Start listening to native level media right now in addition to your course audio, just to get used to the sounds. If at all possible, get a tutor or a language exchange partner a bit later on to practice example dialogues with.

Yeah, I think after completing Michel Thomas, Pimsleur I-IV and Assimil Le Japonais Volume 1 and 2 while reading some of Tae Kim's grammar I will have the basics covered (B1 equivalency hopefully). And yes, I have started listening to native media, it's been one week now and last night I watched The Last Samurai with subs in Spanish, and I could understand some Japanese lines here and there, so that felt good! I will continue watching movies and/or anime. I also sped up the Assimil audio by 12.5%, it does not sound as much, but it does make a noticeable difference. And yes, I want to get a native tutor for January and February. I do hope I get to at least to a B1 level by the 10th of March.
Elenia wrote:As for reading: in your place, I'd focus on being able to read menus and signs. Learn to recognise, pronounce and understand your favourite food names, and also the foods or ingredients you want to avoid. Learn the most common road and shop signs - or whatever signs you think you're most likely to come across in the course of your visit. I wouldn't cut out learning how to read entirely as being able to read can be a massive asset when learning a language*. But as you have specific goals, that's what I'd suggest you work on first. Good luck!

Yes, I think if I'm lucky I will finish the first volume of Remembering the Kanji, that is, I will be able te recognize and write over 2,000 kanji but I won't learn the pronunciations/readings of them (which are covered in the 2nd volume). So I definitely will follow your advice and make sure I master some basic ones like "man", "woman", "customs", "free", "danger" etc.

Marais wrote:How many hours a day are you putting in?

To be blunt - language courses will not prepare you for conversations of any worth because they are too limited in scope. They may prime you for the grammar etc but with a language so different from your others you're not going to have enough time to let the language assimilate in your brain.

You will probably be able to express yourself on certain topics but 4 months isn't enough time to understand what will come back at you.

If your goal was Catalan or Italian, i would say you'd have a very good chance of conversation with the natives just because of your other languages and the fact that you know how to learn languages already.

I'd just do as much as you can, read and listen a TONNE and supplement with your courses to learn phrases etc and don't worry about it. You'll do however well you do and then maybe your trip will give you the motivation to continue afterwards.
I definitely want to continue my studies afterwards, I just love languages and I am learning Japanese because of pleasure really, just moved it atop of my wish list because of the trip next year. Well, I hope I will be able to understand the responses and that my brain gets used to Japanese. I am already starting to feel its logic, it's super logical, I like it. It is super different, so it is a challenge, but considering I have 4 months I think I will be able to achieve at least a B1. I also have some bilingual short stories with audio that I want to use after I complete Assimil (probably in the middle of February). Thanks for the advice Marais.
stelingo wrote:I would recommend http://www.yesjapan.com
I will check it out, it seems interesting and I have read good comments about it. Thank you for the input!
Jimjam wrote:If you're only planning a short tourist trip and don't really have plans to continue with it afterwards then I would probably suggest cutting back on kanji. It doesn't hurt to learn the basics but you definitely won't need to know the entire amount that heisig teaches.
The thing is that I do want to continue afterwards, the trip is just an excuse for me to move Japanese upward on my list, I planned to start German, but the this opportunity showed up and I could not let it go so I postponed German in favor of Japanese :)
Jimjam wrote:Make sure your katakana is very strong as you will use it everywhere, especially on menus and in shops, and the same with hiragana.
Thank you for this advice, this is a very valuable tip. I will work hard on the kana, I definitely want to be really strong at both Katakana and Hiragana.
Jimjam wrote:The rest of the plan sounds pretty solid for getting to a basic conversational level in that time. While I've never used assimil, pimsleur, or Michel Thomas for Japanese, they should definitely do what you want them to, though i'm not sure how they handle tourist situations like ordering in restaurants, and hotel reservations. You probably could use just 1 or 2 of them instead of all 3 as it seems like a little overkill for a tourist visit. Tae Kim is a good choice for a grammar supplement to go with the courses, especially assimil as it is so light on grammar.
Of course, if you plan to continue your studies afterwards, or you would prefer to just learn as much as you can, then please do so by all means.
Thank you for commenting in my plan, and I feel more assured now that you say it sounds pretty solid to you. My plan is to continue to work on it during 2017, and achieve at least a B2 by December next year.
jeff_lindqvist wrote:I don't see Khatzumoto/All Japanese All The Time mentioned anywhere in the thread - http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/

His writing style isn't for everyone (nor is his dedication), but here's his own account of how far he reached in the first 18 months:
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/bl ... 18-months/
Nice, really nice. I will make sure I check it out too, I think it will give me useful insights into learning Japanese that I will not find in courses like Assimil. Many thanks Jeff!
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Japanese:
Japanese with ease: 3 / 99
Pimsleur Japanese I: 7 / 30
Remembering the Kanji: 20 / 2200

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Re: Japanese from scratch in 4 months

Postby galaxyrocker » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:20 am

Carles wrote:Remembering the Kana: I am using this now, and I like it very much.


As someone who just seriously got started studying Japanese (I had dabbled a little before with Assimil and Pimsleur) using Genki and such, you can easily learn the kana. I mastered the hiragana over the weekend the old fashioned way (I tried Remembering the Kanji before and hated it) of just writing them down and then checking to see if I got them right. I can read them though, of course, I still need practice to increase my speed.

That said, I'll be following your log, as I definitely intend to pick Pimsluer and Assimil back up to complement Genki once I get past the first few chapters, and would like to see your opinions on those as they go more in depth as well as on Michael Thomas.
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Re: Japanese from scratch in 4 months

Postby Carles » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:57 pm

I think the old way is a good way to learn the kana. The way I'm using the book is mainly to learn the stroke order and just have some little story associated with them, so it is easier to remember them, but I have been drawing each of them many times.

I am considering transcribing the Linguaphpne course (it's in romaji) into kana since I've read it is a good course and highly regarded. There is a problem though, even when I think it would prove to be a good way to get used to both hiragana and katakana, I also think it will be very time consuming, and I can't help but think I might use that time in a more efficient way.

galaxyrocker wrote:I definitely intend to pick Pimsluer and Assimil back up to complement Genki
Why did you chose Genki over Assimil? And why do you intend to pick the latter up? Would you recommend doing Genki along to Assimil? I heard some of the audio files and I found them to be recorded at a much more natural speed than Assimil's ones.
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Japanese:
Japanese with ease: 3 / 99
Pimsleur Japanese I: 7 / 30
Remembering the Kanji: 20 / 2200

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Re: Japanese from scratch in 4 months

Postby galaxyrocker » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:08 pm

Carles wrote: Why did you chose Genki over Assimil? And why do you intend to pick the latter up? Would you recommend doing Genki along to Assimil? I heard some of the audio files and I found them to be recorded at a much more natural speed than Assimil's ones.



Multiple reasons. I prefer having a straight up text-book with exercises like Genki's and such to work through. I also like how Genki explains things pretty well when they come up, instead of at the end of a series of lessons. And it eases you into reading with the kana in the first two chapters, then slowly adding kanji. I did Assimil and Pimsleur earlier in the year when I had a 30 minute commute (so it worked out perfectly length wise), but now that that's not the case, I just don't see the point in working through them when I have another method I prefer better. I will pick them back up, however, to train my listening ability and pronunciation ability. Especially if I get another job where I'll have a decent commute.
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