Hestia's Log (FR, JP)

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tomgosse
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Re: Xenops Mostly Tackles French (and some other languages)

Postby tomgosse » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:56 pm

Xenops wrote:I've got lots of stuff done, but I might need to pause, or slow the pace to just Anki cards: my semester is wrapping up, and I lots of assignments! Augh!

First of all, check out my latest pronunciation attempt: https://soundcloud.com/hestia-edwards/assimil-3rd-lecon Feedback is welcome. :)

I finished both seasons of Les Revenants within a week (granted, there's only 16 episodes).
Image

I had read reviews that the second season wasn't very good: au contraire, I thought it wrapped up wonderfully. :shock: Maybe the nay-sayers wanted definitive answers to everything. :lol: If it didn't have so much adult material in the first season, I would sing its praises all over the Internet. I can easily say it's the best interpretation of zombies I've seen yet (for best interpretation of vampires, I recommend the anime Shiki).

There was a three-episode special of Wakfu following season two, and man was the writing sloppy. Except for a couple of things that would surely be important in season three, I do not recommend it.

Lately I've been working on Anki cards, and and taking French in Action audio and making Cloze cards.
Image

I'm also taking vocabulary and making cards. With verbs, what I do is find a picture of the present tense conjugation, and plug in the verb tenses pronunciation via one of these sites:

https://www.frenchspanishonline.com/beginnersfrench/frenchverbs.html
http://www.audiofrench.com/verbs/verbes_index.htm

I should go and do something useful now. Au revoir!

Your French R is much better than mine. Congratulations. :)
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Arnaud
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Re: Xenops Mostly Tackles French (and some other languages)

Postby Arnaud » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:44 pm

tomgosse wrote:Your French R is much better than mine. Congratulations. :)
Lol, I was about to write that I don't hear a french R, but a kind of german CH with more or less air expelled: your pronounciation of that sound is generally not correct (sorry, I'm direct, but at least there is room for improvement, as I hear it correctly in a few words like the second "Londres" or "croissants", so you're close). The R is vocalized, it's perhaps your problem that you don't vocalize it enough.
Another little glitch is that the S of "tous" is pronounced. Otherwise it's not bad, there is no problem to understand you
Anki card: Est-ce qu'elle..
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Ingaræð
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Re: Xenops Mostly Tackles French (and some other languages)

Postby Ingaræð » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:09 pm

Have you used FSI French Phonology at all? It's what got me on the road to producing the 'R' correctly, and it improved my pronunciation all-round. As it's geared towards those with a North American accent, you could in theory get even more from it than me. The University of Michigan's videos on the 'R' sound are also excellent (I haven't watched the rest of the series yet, but I expect them to be just as good).
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Xenops
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Re: Xenops Mostly Tackles French (and some other languages)

Postby Xenops » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:18 am

Ingaræð wrote:Have you used FSI French Phonology at all? It's what got me on the road to producing the 'R' correctly, and it improved my pronunciation all-round. As it's geared towards those with a North American accent, you could in theory get even more from it than me. The University of Michigan's videos on the 'R' sound are also excellent (I haven't watched the rest of the series yet, but I expect them to be just as good).


I've done the R portion, in fact. I've even looked at the videos you mentioned before. :(

Arnaud wrote:Lol, I was about to write that I don't hear a french R, but a kind of german CH with more or less air expelled: your pronounciation of that sound is generally not correct (sorry, I'm direct, but at least there is room for improvement, as I hear it correctly in a few words like the second "Londres" or "croissants", so you're close). The R is vocalized, it's perhaps your problem that you don't vocalize it enough.
Another little glitch is that the S of "tous" is pronounced. Otherwise it's not bad, there is no problem to understand you
Anki card: Est-ce qu'elle..


Thank you for the feedback, it's just disheartening that I haven't gotten right yet. :( I've based my pronunciation practice on the feedback from my other pronunciation attempts:
https://soundcloud.com/hestia-edwards/french-a-quelle-heure
This one I've only heard praise about.
https://soundcloud.com/hestia-edwards/assimil-premiere-lecon
This one a French speaker told me I sounded like an Arabic speaker.

I also took what feedback I had and applied to songs that I heard:



In these songs, it sounds like they are trilling, somewhere (my guess was the throat?). I guess I was trying to trill in my throat.

Btw, are you the Arnaud that posts words on Forvo? Thank you.
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Xenops
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Re: Xenops Mostly Tackles French (and some other languages)

Postby Xenops » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:28 am

I am not going to let this set-back defeat me: I emailed to all of the local colleges and campuses in pursuit of a native French speaker. I do not have the funds nor the technology to use iTalki at this time, but perhaps a person would be willing to have a language exchange.

I confess I'm not terribly optimistic, because the main university campus is 40 minutes away.
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Ani
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Re: Xenops Mostly Tackles French (and some other languages)

Postby Ani » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:12 am

Don't feel defeated. I think you have the right action in your R, but (in English terms) you're holding your mouth in the /k/ position, and vocalizing more like an /h/ sound. The grating sound is right but it shouldn't be in the back of the throat. It is on the back bump of the tongue between the molars. If you close your mouth a little bit in a gentle smile position, you should be able to lift the back of the tongue to make the grating sound roll forward. I can roll mine from throat to the tip of my tongue if I try. See if you can do that. Then try and stop it and focus on that high back bump of the tongue near the molars. Be sure to leave the front of your tongue really relaxed, not forcing it down or tensing it in its place.
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Arnaud
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Re: Xenops Mostly Tackles French (and some other languages)

Postby Arnaud » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:56 am

Xenops wrote:Btw, are you the Arnaud that posts words on Forvo? Thank you.
No, I'm not.

You can watch that video to understand what I mean (I'm not a linguist, so I don't know all the terminology). What I hear when I listen to you, is the sound at 1:19 with too much air expelled (voiceless uvular fricative, as he says), and what you should aim for is at 2:13 (voiced uvular fricative->guttural R, as he says). You have to find a way to move from 1:19 to 2:13 by "voicing" and stopping expelling too much air. Once you have that "guttural R" you reduce it a little (because it's not that exagerated) and you have your french R. Hope it helps a little... :?
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Ingaræð
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Re: Xenops Mostly Tackles French (and some other languages)

Postby Ingaræð » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:35 am

Xenops wrote:I've done the R portion, in fact. I've even looked at the videos you mentioned before. :(

I'd really recommend doing the whole FSI course - doing one 'R' section on its own won't solve the problem. In my opinion, you should take a holistic approach and work on all the phonemes: if you can get those that are appearing either side of the 'R' correct, it will be easier to do the 'R' within the flow of sounds. A (perhaps) poor analogy: if you're going to do a workout, you don't just change your sneakers but leave your jeans and sweater on - you need to change into your whole gym kit.

In terms of trilling, as far as I'm aware that's basically used as a replacement sound in singing, as it's easier/sounds better. In normal speech, people will be using the guttural 'R'. Also, in the video that arnaud posted, I'd be careful of using gargling to try to get the correct sound - you may end up with more of a German-sounding uvular trill.

Don't be too disheartened - if you care about pronunciation, it will take time, but you'll get there in the end. Just look at the trouble Americans have doing a British accent, and vice versa - and that's in the same language! If you can get the hang of 'alien' French sounds, you're doing well. :)
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DaveBee
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Re: Xenops Mostly Tackles French (and some other languages)

Postby DaveBee » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:50 am

Ingaræð wrote:Don't be too disheartened - if you care about pronunciation, it will take time, but you'll get there in the end. Just look at the trouble Americans have doing a British accent, and vice versa - and that's in the same language! If you can get the hang of 'alien' French sounds, you're doing well. :)

I always think Hugh Laurie's accent in House sounds silly, but americans seem to be OK with it.
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Tillumadoguenirurm
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Re: Xenops Mostly Tackles French (and some other languages)

Postby Tillumadoguenirurm » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:06 pm

DaveBee wrote:
Ingaræð wrote:Don't be too disheartened - if you care about pronunciation, it will take time, but you'll get there in the end. Just look at the trouble Americans have doing a British accent, and vice versa - and that's in the same language! If you can get the hang of 'alien' French sounds, you're doing well. :)

I always think Hugh Laurie's accent in House sounds silly, but americans seem to be OK with it.


All Brits sound weird when they try to do American. :D
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