Slow-cooked Korean

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qeadz
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Mon May 15, 2017 4:38 pm

Thanks @Oscard587 for the corrections. I don't expect corrections on this forum but am always glad to receive them!

Also thanks @Snow for PM'ing me with some spelling corrections ...

I won't edit the post and correct them though. It's kind of a snapshot, to some extent, of my ability; spelling errors and all. Usually I allow myself looking up words I am unsure of, so that I guess breaks the whole 'snapshot of my ability' illusion I guess.
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94000d
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby 94000d » Mon May 15, 2017 7:43 pm

I'm half convinced that Koreans just like making up new words for the fun of it. Between Naver (Korean site with Korean/English dictionary), Google Translate and Dongsa Verb Conjugator, I can work through most content looking up words or phrases. However there is an alarmingly high rate at which I encounter words in texts which NONE of those online dictionaries appear to know about!


Could you give some examples?
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Sayonaroo » Mon May 15, 2017 9:00 pm

lol I totally agree sometimes it feels like the Korean dictionary fails me 50% of the time. Some words I can tell will not be in the dictionary and it won't and I don't even bother wasting my time and go straight to google. Luckily there's still Japanese google and chiebukuro and Lang-8 to search/ask natives. Korea does seem to be obsessed with trends and coming up with new words every year. It's so hard to be hip lol... jk

It's just inevitable that you'll feel frustrated by this phenomenon if all you do is consume entertainment aimed at native speakers and constantly come across these damn words that aren't in the dictionary
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby leosmith » Mon May 15, 2017 10:57 pm

94000d wrote:Could you give some examples?

This might not be what qeadz is talking about, but you can check the drama dialogs I linked to in my log. There are quite a few examples of "Seoul dialect/colloquialisms" with their standard dialect equivalents in parentheses.
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qeadz
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Mon May 15, 2017 11:21 pm

94000d wrote:Could you give some examples?


Not off the top of my head. I'll keep an eye out while reading and when they come up, I'll make a note and put something in this log.

In general the cases where a word does not come up in Naver with a specific meaning, it still usually has some example texts pulled up. And of course if the example texts don't help me associate some kind of meaning to it, I can always throw the whole sentence into online translators and try with/without the word to see what difference it seems to make.

I did this a number of times in the past, but I got frustrated being held up on one word for so long. These days if it doesn't appear I just enter "???" into LingQ and move on. At some point I might re-read the text and figure out something for it.

EDIT: Also my comment was not meant to be a criticism or remark against Korean or Koreans! It was entirely in jest based on frustrations I was having at the time. Take everything in this language log with a large pinch of salt - it is also a place in which I can vent
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby leosmith » Mon May 15, 2017 11:52 pm

Here are some samples of what I mentioned.

From 도깨비:
삼촌 취하기만 하면 금나와라 뚝딱(도깨비가 외우는 주문)해서 나한테 금 자랑 하고 그랬잖아.

From 힐러:
그기 머꼬(dialect: 뭐야)?
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Tue May 16, 2017 5:27 pm

94000d wrote:Could you give some examples?


I was going to collect a few examples and then post them, but I want to do further updates to this log and it would be good to have any discussion which comes from this thread now.

Lately I've been re-reading older content. So in some cases I've managed to figure out what words might mean because I understand the texts better. However here are two from the last day or so which still elude me.

In a transcript of a North Korean woman who now lives in Seoul I find this (I've copied part of the sentence):

...아프지 않은 손자들이 찾아와 흥성거려 때로는 고향...
The word I have absolutely no idea for is: 흥성거려 - Naver comes up blank!

Another example is from an article on the Korean War:

...현재까지 양측의 유무형적 갈등은 지속되고 있다.
The word I have trouble with is: 유무형적. While I find no reference for the entire word, it appears to be 유무 and 형적 together. However even knowing the translations for these two parts, I'm still at a loss to explain what it means. Feeding the whole clause into an online translator leads me to believe it means "both internal and external" with regard to conflict.

If I continue reading and marking them, by the end of the week I could easily accrue 10 such examples! It depends on what kind of content I am working through. If it is TalkToMeInKorean, then everything is known unless its a spelling mistake. When I pull news articles off the web or work through transcriptions for dramas then I find I encounter words which don't come up in the online dictionaries/translators.

EDIT: One more from the same article on the Korean War:
국부전인 동시에 전면전이라는 복잡한 성격을 가졌다.
국부전인 = ???... possibly a local (국부) conflict (전)
Last edited by qeadz on Tue May 16, 2017 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Sayonaroo » Tue May 16, 2017 6:08 pm

I am also learning Korean via reading and wheneve come across stuff that makes me go ? I ask on chiebukuro or Lang-8 so I don't waste any more time (sometimes because they don't use hanja I generally have no idea which meaning the word is in that particular context... I lack the inferencing skills of a native speaker. There have been more than A handful of times I was so sure it was x meaning but it was actually y meaning or y hanja which would've been completely avoided if they included the hanja. I'm sure this will get easier as I read more ). I googled the first example you put and I got a hit in Japanese google and the monolingual dictionary section of naver. This was the naver entry 여러 사람이 활기차게 떠들며 계속 흥겹고 번성한 분위기를 이루다. [비슷한 말] 흥성대다.

The downside to monolingual dictionary is you gotta look up words in the definition that you don't know and waste time that could've been used towards something else. I prefer reading the definition or explanation in Japanese or English than the Korean Korean dictionary just because I'd rather not have to waste my time looking up words in the definition that I don't really care about at least in comparison to the actual word at hand.

And I think your guess for guk-bu is correct but the only way to confirm to ask a native with the context sentence/paragraph
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Oscard587 » Wed May 17, 2017 12:57 am

qeadz wrote:
94000d wrote:Could you give some examples?


Another example is from an article on the Korean War:

...현재까지 양측의 유무형적 갈등은 지속되고 있다.
The word I have trouble with is: 유무형적. While I find no reference for the entire word, it appears to be 유무 and 형적 together. However even knowing the translations for these two parts, I'm still at a loss to explain what it means. Feeding the whole clause into an online translator leads me to believe it means "both internal and external" with regard to conflict.

If I continue reading and marking them, by the end of the week I could easily accrue 10 such examples! It depends on what kind of content I am working through. If it is TalkToMeInKorean, then everything is known unless its a spelling mistake. When I pull news articles off the web or work through transcriptions for dramas then I find I encounter words which don't come up in the online dictionaries/translators.

EDIT: One more from the same article on the Korean War:
국부전인 동시에 전면전이라는 복잡한 성격을 가졌다.
국부전인 = ???... possibly a local (국부) conflict (전)


well that's somewhat difficult to explain it with my English skill.
유무형적 is the word that 유형적+무형적.
유 and 무 means 'something exist' and 'something doesn't exist' ,
유형적 is something has a 'form'. 무형적 is antonym of 유형적.
wow, these type of words are really difficult to translate. in English, people use different word by context for those words.

also 국부전.. 국부 has a meaning that 'the part of whole'
but I thought '국지전' first when I read '전면전'. because '국지전' is more frequently used word for this and 국부 is usually used for terms in surgery or something like that.
if someone is a Korean, then he or she might be more familiar with the word 국부마취, rather than 국부전.
because 국부 has several meanings that more frequently used.

About vocabulary, I have several Russian Beginners course and books, I also found that they use all similar words - I guess it's the limited vocabulary for teaching. I'm not sure about TTMIK but it's possible to limit their vocabulary to them too. or distance of news and spoken Korean is more far than we thought.
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby smallwhite » Wed May 17, 2017 6:33 am

Oscard587 wrote:
qeadz wrote:Another example is from an article on the Korean War:

...현재까지 양측의 유무형적 갈등은 지속되고 있다.
The word I have trouble with is: 유무형적. While I find no reference for the entire word, it appears to be 유무 and 형적 together. However even knowing the translations for these two parts, I'm still at a loss to explain what it means. Feeding the whole clause into an online translator leads me to believe it means "both internal and external" with regard to conflict.


well that's somewhat difficult to explain it with my English skill.
유무형적 is the word that 유형적+무형적.
유 and 무 means 'something exist' and 'something doesn't exist' ,
유형적 is something has a 'form'. 무형적 is antonym of 유형적.
wow, these type of words are really difficult to translate. in English, people use different word by context for those words.

유무형적
= 유형적 and 무형적
= with-form 적 and without-form 적
= with and without form 적
= both tangible and intangible
= tangible or otherwise

"유무X" expresses "having X or not having X", "having X or otherwise".


= with and without form
or
= with or without form
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