Lilly's log - French, Russian, Spanish and Italian

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blaurebell
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian and reluctant Spanish

Postby blaurebell » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:06 am

Russian
3h of reading, the rest was daily stuff (some Duolingo, some clozemaster, listening to an audiobok), 1 audio file of Modern Russian, no Assimil. It helped to read in the morning rather than later in the day. Russian hours: 4.13h.

French

40min of a France culture documentary about the Bauhaus school on the bus. French pronunciation of German names had me miss some bits here and there, because I was trying to parse those names as French words and then I got lost. Other than that no problems and very interesting. I also read a bit more of my Kundera translation. French hours: 1.33h.

Spanish

Ministerio del Tiempo is getting really silly - and it was already plenty silly before. There are now apparently two ways to time-travel: Some weird non-scifi doors and a nuclear powered machine in use by the Americans :roll: I was complaining that this is illogical, inconsistent, idiotic ... husband was laughing about me: "You're saying this is unbelievable?!" Uhm ... yeah, forget what I said ...! Spanish hours: 1.16h.

Another day with 5 languages: Some German and English happened as well. Total time spent: almost 6h!

Language Learning Plans

I really like days on which I use all of my languages. Of course I don't really count Italian since I never really broke through the comprehension barrier properly and forgot most of it years ago. I can actually still understand some spoken Italian from the north, but can't really always parse written Italian without a dictionary. Currently I have no immediate plans to reactivate it, but I might one day. My interest in Italian only involved studying abroad there and these plans fell through due to the circumstances in which I got into my university. Basically because I joined late they didn't let me on the right courses so that I would be allowed to sit the proficiency exam at the right time for Erasmus and that was that. In Italian I also haven't really found much native content I'd be interested in and if I don't have that I would have a hard time finding the motivation to learn the language properly. I do dream about an Italian art history road trip, so that would be a reason to learn it, but since I also have to reactivate all my art history knowledge about the Renaissance I guess it would be a project for after my PhD.

Somehow I find it way more likely that my next language will be Japanese though. There are oodles and oodles of content that I would like and I have been dreaming about visiting Japan for many many years. With all my allergies and health problems I better speak Japanese or I might get myself into real trouble over there. I also have many friends who learned Japanese and could give me the right pointers. And to practice I could always find Japanese people in Düsseldorf - there is a big Japanese community there and in some shops they don't even speak any German. We even have some Japanese course books in the house, because my husband visited Japan some years ago and learned a little Japanese for that. Again, such a huge project that I better leave it for after the PhD.

There is one more language I've always found fascinating: Icelandic. In fact in my first atlas, the only page that was dog-eared was the Iceland page, because I loved that it got its own little separated corner on the Europe map. I also love Icelandic music and some of the literature is fascinating. From the first day I got this Atlas I knew that one day I would visit Iceland and I went there about 10 years ago. I didn't know how to drive though and it was the middle of February so I didn't see that much of the countryside sadly. Reykjavík itself I found really rather boring as a city and the weather during our stay was absolutely horrific - horizontal rain and hail, and so humid that 0°C felt like -30°C. I thought I'd never get warm again! What a great place to visit in the middle of winter :lol: The dream is to one day go back *in summer* and cross the island on horseback. Frankly, I won't really need Icelandic for that though, they speak excellent English there. There is also no Assimil, no Duolingo, I don't think there are many Icelandic series, no dubs, so it would be a lot more difficult to follow my usual method, the literature is rather limited and there aren't many Icelandic speakers in general. Probably not a very pragmatic choice, even though it is a fascinating language. I probably won't ever learn it though unless one day they make an Assimil Icelandic course.

So, I think after Japanese and Italian I will stop and put all my languages on a maintenance rotation. I already find it hard to maintain 3 languages while studying a 4th, so more than 6 seems somewhat counterproductive. I'd rather have 5 languages at C1 than 12 at B1.

PhD related language learning goals

Right now I'm on a full-on 3 year cycle to be able to understand 5 languages at a good level. I need all of them for my PhD, so highbrow reading mostly. At the beginning German + English were in place, I needed to learn French and Russian from scratch and to improve Spanish to C1:

French: Last year I spent half a year with around 600h of French, broke the comprehension barrier and now understand the language at a good highbrow level. I was actually planning to do this on the side for about a year, but got hooked on Harry Potter and learned French in 3 months by accident. Oops! The rest of the time was fairly low intensity watching series and reading for fun. I actually surpassed my PhD related French goal already half a year ago, because I was having so much fun! No speaking or writing required for now.

Russian: This year it is full-on Russian, trying to break through the comprehension barrier for PhD related reading, and speaking it well enough to survive a trip to Moscow in November. Ideally I also want to be able to talk to my mum and other relatives in Russian, and to prepare a photography project in the Ukraine. The latter will partly be somewhat unsafe, so I need more than just hand-wavy communication skills. I tried grammar torture + anki in 2015 and failed. Such a useless method for a difficult language with too much grammar and vocabulary, unbelievable that this is the most common method for teaching Russian! This year Assimil + Duolingo + intensive reading like with French and it's already working, success is in fact inevitable by now. I'm barely 2 months into a 3 month challenge and have already read half a novel with a dictionary. The goal is to finish a Russian reading SC by July and it looks like I can make it. Once reading becomes fun I might have the same "problem" like with French - having too much fun and learning way too fast for my schedule :lol: I won't complain. When I'm done with the SC I'll continue reading for the PhD with Russian books and related French books about Russian topics.

Spanish: I need more precision in my reading comprehension because I'll need to read a lot of high brow fiction for this part of the PhD. I already understand everything I read, but it's not very enjoyable, because I feel like I'm swimming a little. I would also like to establish some contacts with Argentinian researchers working on similar topics, so I need to stop sounding like a moron - I still get my subjunctives wrong half the time. I'll need to get my writing skills up to speed as well, because it's not unlikely that I might collaborate on academic articles in Spanish. Another problem unrelated to the PhD is my listening comprehension for continental Spanish. It's probably more of a cultural problem than a pure listening comprehension problem, but well, most of the time I miss bits and pieces of what people around here are saying because of idiomatic language usage and just plain weird ways of beating around the bush. It looks like I'll be stuck here for a while, so I can't just skip the continental problem simply because I can't stand the accent. Next year full-on Spanish with: FSI, Argentinian intensive reading SC, Continental Spanish listening SC and finding an Argentinian tutor to speak with me about Argentinian literature and correct my writing. If I'm really lucky and I find the funding for it somewhere I might do some archive work in Buenos Aires too. Next year ideally all Spanish all the time, with bits of French and Russian maintenance.

The year after this 3 year period will mainly involve plugging some holes in my PhD reading list in all 5 languages and writing the actual dissertation. Luckily I was never restricted to a 3 year schedule, it would be pretty impossible while filling in my language gaps "on the side". By the end of my PhD I will have read about 10-15,000 pages each in Spanish, French and Russian, maybe more. Likely outcome: Spanish C1 all around, Russian C1 passive B2 active, French C1 passive. I planned it like this from the start to have an excuse to learn a couple more languages. Caused me lots of anxiety for a while because Russian wasn't working. I ditched Russian from the schedule for a year, realised I couldn't make it work without the language and now I'm back on track with my original plan, just having switched my German-French year with my Russian year.

I'm not sure yet how I'm going to integrate Japanese and Italian into my life after I'm done with the PhD, but it's likely going to work the same - either I'll study art history and start with Italian or I start researching Japanese photography for real. Maybe I'll first do one and then the other. Italian should be super fast, I only need to reactivate it, so why not? Japanese is much harder and a good challenge, better leave a 3 year period for it.

In general I'm a pragmatic language learner, so I won't learn a language just because I find it somehow interesting, otherwise I'd know Icelandic already. I need a stronger incentive and motivation. Not tanking my PhD is a real good reason, a road trip through Italy to see all the Renaissance art another, researching Japanese photography through native language sources and finally visiting the country after all my previous manga and anime exposure would be another!
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian and reluctant Spanish

Postby Rebecca » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:49 pm

blaurebell wrote:I'm glad to help! Just make sure you pick a page turner, otherwise it's very annoying to get through the first 300 pages! Translations are best for the first couple thousand pages, otherwise slang and idiomatic expressions might make things difficult. Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Hunger Games, that sort of thing. Those might be an affront to your reading standards in your own language, but when starting on a new language, silly genre fiction like that is perfect.


Yeah, I have to admit, I wouldn't normally read that sort of thing - children's and teen fiction - in my own language, but somehow I don't think it would be so bad in a target language. Would you say the Harry Potter series was a good first choice to use with your LWT method in terms of the language used, difficulty of sentences, etc? I have never read the books in English, so I have no comparison.

In terms of DVD series, I have the box set of Buffy lined up waiting for me. It's not something I would ever watch out of choice, but I have been persuaded by the fact that there are very accurate transcripts available, and I will probably need those, at least for the first couple of series. I will have to see if I can get through it without too much eye-rolling though. Although, you never know, maybe I'll surprise myself and become addicted to it! :lol:
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian and reluctant Spanish

Postby blaurebell » Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:39 pm

Rebecca wrote:Would you say the Harry Potter series was a good first choice to use with your LWT method in terms of the language used, difficulty of sentences, etc? I have never read the books in English, so I have no comparison.


Oh yes, it was a very good choice! They increase in difficulty, so the further you get into the series the wider the vocabulary. I actually tend to start with Harry Potter always. Russian is the exception because I just read all of them in French. I read the first couple Harry Potter books in Spanish, Italian and French actually, always a good start into reading. I've read all of the books in English before when I was bored too - I sometimes read silly page turners when I'm on holiday because it's entertaining and doesn't need any brain power. I tend to read difficult books normally - flamboyant 1920s prose, philosophy, classics, that sort of thing - when I'm on holiday I can easily read a whole science fiction series or something as silly as Harry Potter. We are allowed to relax too :D I draw the line at Anne Rice novels though, that will never happen even for language learning :lol:

Watching Buffy in French is a very good idea. I think the dubbing is actually better than the somewhat atrocious acting in the OV :lol: And there is just one episode where I skipped half of it because it was unbearable - some sort of musical demon :roll: That spin-off series Angel is actually much more cringeworthy, singing demons, that sort of thing. I'm still enjoying it though and keep watching it although I could easily move on to native series already. Stargate I find pretty unbearable in English, the acting is just so bad! In Spanish it's absolutely hilarious though! I actually watched all 22 seasons of it, which was damn good practice. My husband was shaking his head whenever he saw me watching that crap. He shakes his head over Buffy and Angel too. A good sign that it's TV where the dialogues might *improve* through translation :D
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian and reluctant Spanish

Postby blaurebell » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:40 am

Russian

One audio file of Modern Russian. 1h of writing out the workbook exercises. I made mistakes here and there, on aspect mostly, but overall not too bad. lang8 is a bit difficult for grammar exercises because people also correct use of too simple language. I'm getting really a lot out of it though! I also did 10XP on Duolingo and a bit of Clozemaster. Almost 2h of intensive reading. Russian hours: 3.52h

I think I may have ditched Assimil. I don't know what it is about that halfway point, but I think it might be my early intensive reading + Duolingo that makes me feel like Assimil is just super easy and the vocabulary not really relevant. The same thing happened with the Assimil French course, so I guess with my method I just move at a much faster pace than Assimil does. Modern Russian fits my needs better right now and seems definitely more challenging. I feel that it gives me a good workout. I get more speaking practice from Modern Russian and will probably continue with Glossika shadowing once I'm done with Modern Russian. I'm now at a point where an additional hour of intensive reading a day will be more useful than doing a lesson of Assimil. I got what I needed out of Assimil, time to move on!

French

While walking into town I listened to one France culture documentary on one of the Bauhaus architects. Interesting! I must have listened to half of it before though, some things seemed way too familiar and I don't really know much about the guy. I also read another 20 pages of my Kundera translation. Just one more story left in the book! I also watched 1 episode of Angel French dubs. I'm halfway through Season 4 and it's already obvious why Angel wasn't renewed for Season 6. They wrote themselves into a corner and the only obvious solution was to kill off one of the main characters. The problem is that killing off main characters usually ruins the chemistry. And bam, another show where paying proper writers would have helped! French hours: 2.14h

Total hours: 5.6h

English

We're getting closer to finishing Chandler's Big Sleep, read out loud of course. After 100,000+ pages of reading and audio input way north of 5000h, studying at an English university for 4 years and living my life in English for 10 years, reading out loud is really the only English activity where I still feel like I learn something, mainly about melody, speaking rhythms, punctuation, that sort of thing. Basically it's advanced prosody training and gives good insights into writing styles. Chandler has many sentences with too many and's and repetitions, basically what's considered bad writing, but matches patterns in spoken language. It's really written like people speak, lots of old-fashioned slang too. Not very long sentences, but the melody is unexpected somehow for written language. Some expressions in there are also just hilarious. If you think you've got nothing to improve anymore with your C2 languages, try reading out loud!
Last edited by blaurebell on Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian and reluctant Spanish

Postby Rebecca » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:33 am

blaurebell wrote:Watching Buffy in French is a very good idea. I think the dubbing is actually better than the somewhat atrocious acting in the OV :lol: And there is just one episode where I skipped half of it because it was unbearable - some sort of musical demon :roll: That spin-off series Angel is actually much more cringeworthy, singing demons, that sort of thing. I'm still enjoying it though and keep watching it although I could easily move on to native series already. Stargate I find pretty unbearable in English, the acting is just so bad! In Spanish it's absolutely hilarious though! I actually watched all 22 seasons of it, which was damn good practice. My husband was shaking his head whenever he saw me watching that crap. He shakes his head over Buffy and Angel too. A good sign that it's TV where the dialogues might *improve* through translation :D


Oh Lord....musical demons? :roll: I wonder what I'm getting myself into now... :lol:

Your husband's reaction sound pretty similar to my partner - his face was a real picture when the Buffy DVD arrived and he saw what I had bought. He looked at me as if to say "Do I even know you at all??" Hilarious! :lol:

Of course, I now tease him that I will make him sit with me and watch all seven seasons of it. ;)
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian and reluctant Spanish

Postby jeffers » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:09 pm

Rebecca wrote:Your husband's reaction sound pretty similar to my partner - his face was a real picture when the Buffy DVD arrived and he saw what I had bought. He looked at me as if to say "Do I even know you at all??" Hilarious! :lol:


That's what's kept me from trying the "Buffy method". My wife and kids already think I'm crazy, and anytime I get a DVD or CD they ask, "What language is it in?" Despite that, so far they still believe I have taste. I wouldn't want to dispell that notion. ;)
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian and reluctant Spanish

Postby blaurebell » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:31 pm

Rebecca wrote:Of course, I now tease him that I will make him sit with me and watch all seven seasons of it.


I'm forcing my husband to watch Ministerio del Tiempo with me which is hilariously bad. Even worse for him since he's a native speaker. At least we both have something to complain about :D

jeffers wrote:That's what's kept me from trying the "Buffy method". My wife and kids already think I'm crazy, and anytime I get a DVD or CD they ask, "What language is it in?" Despite that, so far they still believe I have taste. I wouldn't want to dispell that notion.


Taste just makes things way too hard when learning a new language :D And besides, without all the Buffy I wouldn't be listening to France culture documentaries now, because I wouldn't understand them! It doesn't have to be quite as bad as Buffy though, any action series will do. They say 24 is not so bad. Never really watched more than an episode though. Tried to find it in Russian, but I'm actually tempted by The Americans. That's like 20% proper Russian anyway and has binge watch potential. By the way Buffy doesn't tempt me to binge watch, since it's just way too silly. Good if you actually also have other things to do :D
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian and reluctant Spanish

Postby jeffers » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:35 pm

blaurebell wrote:Taste just makes things way too hard when learning a new language :D And besides, without all the Buffy I wouldn't be listening to France culture documentaries now, because I wouldn't understand them! It doesn't have to be quite as bad as Buffy though, any action series will do. They say 24 is not so bad. Never really watched more than an episode though. Tried to find it in Russian, but I'm actually tempted by The Americans. That's like 20% proper Russian anyway and has binge watch potential. By the way Buffy doesn't tempt me to binge watch, since it's just way too silly. Good if you actually also have other things to do :D


To be honest, I use 100% native media. Yes it's harder to follow, but I enjoy learning about new shows this way. It's also a good exposure to French culture, habits and biases, and observing things like the gestures they make while speaking how people address each other, how people react in different situations, etc. More importantly, you get to see the right facial moves for the things people are saying. This is important for pronouncing any language, but I think even more so for getting French out correctly. The introduction to French in Action brought this aspect to my attention.

I fully understand the value of the more simple language which you get from translated series, but I like the cultural stuff. I get more simple language by listening to audio from readers and from podcasts like L'avis de Marie.

Regarding taste, although they roll their eyes at every new French album I buy, the music is good enough that I catch my kids singing along to a lot of the French music I listen to regularly. Good music is good regardless. :)
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian and reluctant Spanish

Postby Tomás » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:39 pm

If you like Raymond Chandler you might love James M Cain:

https://www.amazon.com/James-M.-Cain/e/B000APBEEQ

Really excellent use of the mid-20th century American vernacular, and a fantastic story-teller to boot.
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian and reluctant Spanish

Postby blaurebell » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:39 am

jeffers wrote:I fully understand the value of the more simple language which you get from translated series, but I like the cultural stuff.


Oh, I totally agree with you, but I do watch an awful lot of TV in general, so I don't mind spending the first 115h on a dubbed series. It's a good progression actually - 150h of dubbed shows, then an easier native show, the next one with a bit more slang, at least 150h, then 150h of movies, more challenging because the actors keep changing, finished off 150h of content with different accents. I tend to throw in 5000 pages worth of audiobooks too as extreme extensive reading and 150h of native highbrow radio too. In French it's actually much easier than in Spanish where I find proper native content unbearably bad usually. I really have to force myself to watch series in Spanish. Movies are better, but harder to find. I can at least bear dubbed shows, but it's obvious that they're not quite enough. And I mean, seriously, if I can bear something as bad as Buffy, you can imagine how bad those native Spanish shows are.

Tomás wrote:If you like Raymond Chandler you might love James M Cain:


Thank you for the recommendation! Looks indeed perfect to get a bit more variety and similar language!
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