Lilly's log - French, Russian, Spanish and Italian

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blaurebell
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Re: Lilly's log - French and Russian

Postby blaurebell » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:47 pm

I was curious, so I tried to reconstruct how much time I actually spent on my Russian during my last attempt to learn it. From Anki stats I gleaned that I spent 16h on minimal pairs listening practice and 12h on grammar cards. Not bad. However, there were also a whopping 50h on general word cards that seem to have had no impact at all. Jeez, wasting 50h of a total of maybe 120h really hurts a lot. At least the minimal pairs and grammar cards were well spent, as well as the 35h video course Russian World 1!

This time round after 6 weeks I've hit 110h, a little more than half of which I spent reading. Reading Russian is definitely a lot harder than French. After a similar amount of time spent on reading I was almost done with the first Harry Potter in French and had 6000 known word forms in LWT at a known / unknown ratio of 69% in the database. With Russian I'm reading at barely half the speed still and I'm only at ~3500 known with a ratio of 46% known. Ouch! Every now and then I encounter cognates from German, but other than that there is next to no vocabulary overlap with the other languages I know. The sentences are usually longer and more complex with a rather annoying number of verbs too. In fact on every page there is at least one sentence that is much much more complex than anything I've encountered on Duolingo, Assimil or Clozemaster so far and it's unlikely that such sentences will come up at all, because they go on for half a paragraph :roll: I also feel that no amount of courses could ever give me enough vocabulary to bridge that missing cognates gap that makes reading feel so much more difficult. That said, by now I'm starting to figure out how Russian builds longer words from shorter words that I already know, which suggests that I might be on the verge of a jump in comprehension.

Speaking of a jump in comprehension: With the Ночной дозор audiobook I'm starting to follow the story pretty well although I get maybe only 25% of the words. Before I started to learn Russian I had this strange skill to always know what people are speaking about in the language although I didn't understand a single word - my parents tried to have secrets from us in Russian, so that's probably how I developed that skill of subconscious understanding. Right now it feels like a very enhanced version of the same thing with the occasional fully understood sentence. Still a lot of guesswork going on, but something is definitely happening and coming together. Not sure how many pages it will take me to get to my goal of 35,000 known word forms in LWT and whether that will even be enough to start with extensive reading. I suspect 5000 pages might actually not be enough after all - it got me to 29,000 in French which I was picking up much faster. I guess it will have to be a double Super Challenge and if I hit 35,000 with a ratio of less than 85% known vs unknown I'll just keep going. So, if after all of Belgariad I still feel I'm struggling a little I'll just continue with Terry Pratchett translations.

By the way, if I read all of the Belgariad and some Terry Pratchett my reading progression in Russian will actually closely mirror the books I read in German when I was about 9 or 10 years old. No wonder that I was always way ahead in reading comprehension considering that I powered through all of the Belgariad - 4000 pages - in one summer! I only realised the other day how exceptional that is, since these books are not actually meant for children and even kids who like to read only get through such amounts in secondary school. So, to reach my level of reading comprehension as a 10yr old I will have to read about 10,000 pages at least in any new language :shock: To match my 18yr old self I'd probably need around 100,000-150,000+ pages. I have always been a voracious reader. In fact I once had to ask my brother for money because I was completely broke after spending way too much money on books. He couldn't help though, because he had just spent all his money on records. He did have stamps though, so he sent me Knut Hamsun's Hunger which is a book about a starving writer :lol:

In any case, these numbers totally explain why my Spanish reading comprehension is so laughable and insufficient for my standards, I'm not even at the level of my 10yr old self yet! So, right up top on my Spanish to do list is a full intensive reading SC with page turners - depending on my progress with Russian I might have some Terry Pratchett left or maybe Hunger Games followed by a few Stephen King novels. Also, the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
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Re: Lilly's log - French and Russian

Postby Arnaud » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:08 am

DaveBee wrote:France Culture has had several Russia themed programmes recently
1917-2017. La Fabrique de l’Histoire, LSD, La série documentaire, et d'autres émissions de France Culture s’emparent d’un des faits majeurs de l’histoire mondiale. Analyses et perspectives, documentaires, archives et témoignages. Une semaine fondamentale pour revisiter les enjeux de la Révolution russe à la lumière de nos perspectives d’aujourd’hui.

I've listened to these podcasts, and they are really interesting. The level of french of these russians is simply incredible. They are only betrayed by their burgundy accent and a few grammatical mistakes, but otherwise they sound like old french peasants speaking like aristocrats. 8-)
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Re: Lilly's log - French and Russian

Postby blaurebell » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:19 am

Arnaud wrote:I've listened to these podcasts, and they are really interesting. The level of french of these russians is simply incredible. They are only betrayed by their burgundy accent and a few grammatical mistakes, but otherwise they sound like old french peasants speaking like aristocrats.


I was pretty amazed by their level of French too. But then there is a long history of French spoken among the artistocrats and Russian upper class in Russia - they spoke French among each other usually -, which is why War and Peace has tons of French in the original and why most Russian exiles after the revolution settled in Paris. They first went to Berlin and then moved on for financial reasons as there was a new law introduced in Germany regarding foreign assets at the time. Must have been around 1923 when they all moved on to Paris. And most upper class Russians also had foreign nannies: Although Nabokov never learned a foreign language he could write in English because he had an English nanny. He lived in Germany for many many years - much longer than most exiles - and never learned a word of German. It was similar with other Russians and French nannies. So, French historically just has a special significance in Russian "cultured" society. Lots and lots of Russians who went into exile during all phases of Soviet history went to France in general, not only to Paris. There is also lots of Russian history around Biarritz.

Interesting about the Burgundy accent. I don't pick up on accents yet, because I haven't had that much listening exposure yet. I wonder why burgundy of all places ...!
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Re: Lilly's log - French and Russian

Postby blaurebell » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:49 pm

French

I'm still working on my French all audio SC - 5000 pages worth of audiobooks, 150h other audio content. Right now I don't feel like continuing with La guerre du feu, so I listen to France culture documentaries in my 150h "other" category - so far I've listened to about 5h of those and I'm still surprised that I understand 99% of this. Assimil + Duolingo and my intensive reading SC were truly effective! If this works just as well for my Russian I'll be super happy! With the documentaries about Russian stuff I need to make sure I listen only to the French though when there are simultaneous translations or my brain tries to listen to both French and Russian at the same time and gets lost. By the way, for some reason I find it much easier to filter out languages I'm more used to - German, English and Spanish. I think my brain still considers French and Russian a bit of a novelty and gets all excited. I also have to make sure I don't replace my 150h other category by watching Arte. I want really no visual help at all, because those visual cues would probably prevent me from progressing.

Russian

: 37 / 100 Assimil Le Russe
: 54 / 79 Duolingo Russian
: 30 / 100 Дэвид Эддингс - Обретение чуда
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done:
Pronunciation trainer
Russian World 1
Red Kalinka - Stories in Russian A1
Red Kalinka - Stories in Russian A2.1
Red Kalinka - Stories in Russian A2.2

See yesterday's post for progress on reading comprehension which is my main focus right now. I've done less on Russian this week because I spent more time on French, but still got 28h of Russian done and I'm happy with that. Assimil is getting a little random - from my childhood I still remember Russian onomatopoeic sounds of dogs, cats, cows etc without the Assimil refresher. And who needs those anyway :roll: ? Also the one medical lesson seemed to be making fun of me since my health has been acting up a bit. I wish that one weren't so useful :cry: Other than that nothing to report, still making next to no mistakes in the exercises and some sentences are more difficult to pronounce than others. I tripped over the combination of что же for example although it's so close to тоже! I think they put tongue twisters with lots of rolling Rs and combinations of ш ж and ч in there on purpose. Good practice! On Duolingo I'm only 4 skills away from the last checkpoint. I'm approaching the final stretch! I also seem to be making less mistakes during production these last few days. On Clozemaster I seem to be getting all the insults right (multiple choice) which amuses me to no end. I do remember those from our Russian (mafia!) neighbours living one block up the hill. I guess my childhood left me only with the most "useful" bits - animal sounds and insults :roll:

My mum keeps sending me movie recommendations, but I still can't understand them. I've already got a sizeable list of things to read and watch now, but I'm still banging my head against the comprehension barrier.

Spanish

The only Spanish I had this week, apart from bits and pieces of the usual comments on my vintage camera on the street, was a skype conversation between my husband and my in-laws at the other end of the flat. I was reading in Russian and was only half listening, but didn't miss anything - Argentinian listening comprehension is still up to speed. However, I sometimes really have to guess what those people over here in the Basque Country want from me - the main problem is that they skip over a lot of things that they assume is understood already, so half of the important information isn't said and the other half is repeated incessantly :roll: so, it's not the words or the accent, it's the way of speaking.

Travel

The content of that conversation between my husband and his parents were more details on upcoming travel! Seems his parents want to visit Madrid and possibly Granada, Bilbao quite likely which is just an hour from here and ... Paris! If Paris really happens, I might have to take some time away from Russian and throw in at least a month of French speaking practice. This wasn't really part of my plan for this year, but I won't get a better reason in a middle of a Russian year with a Spanish year coming up! If those plans become more concrete I think I might use my summer holiday in August for it and maintain in September - Paris would happen in October. Lots of French tourists in town in August so I might even try to start some conversations with them. And of course travelling with my husband's parents generally means 2-4 weeks of Argentinian non-stop coming up, can't wait! Also, my husband's sister might be traveling somewhere else via Barcelona this year and we might go down there to meet her. That would be cool since my other Barcelona plans for this year fell through. I'm also keen on throwing in a trip to my university in Germany, and there was a hesitantly planned London - Oxford trip, but with travel to my hometown on the other side of the country coming up + crazy travel with the in-laws and Moscow plans for November, it's probably getting a tad too mad again. Good for photography and motivation for TL speaking practice, bad for my sanity.

...

Speaking of sanity: After calling German tech support yesterday I almost think this log should have a German section too :lol: I believe I was understood, but I used some very very strange words because I had to prevent English, French and Russian words from tumbling out of my mouth. And that shortly after just finishing a German PhD year and reading some 5000 pages of super highbrow 1920s German! So much for my native language :roll: I wonder whether one day I will recover enough of my German to sound less like a moron :roll: Maybe once I get all my other languages to a solid C1 maintenance level the interference will reduce at least a little! Wishful thinking probably.
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Re: Lilly's log - French and Russian

Postby Ingaræð » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:31 pm

blaurebell wrote:Assimil is getting a little random - from my childhood I still remember Russian onomatopoeic sounds of dogs, cats, cows etc without the Assimil refresher. And who needs those anyway :roll: ?


That's just reminded me of this post on HTLAL (Comparing Assimil Russian 1951/1971/2004):

lsilvaj wrote:Still on the subject, here are partially altered texts (in order to prevent copyright issues) from lesson 36 of both "Le Russe sans Peine" (70s) and the newest Russian with Ease.

Lesson 36 - Le Russe Sans Peine ("a gift")

Nikolai P., couldn't you give me some advice? -Advice? About what? -About a gift. This week, Saturday, it's my friend's birthday. -And you want to give him a present, right? -Absolutely right. I would like to present him with a souvenir. What can you suggest? -Does he have a photocamera? -No, as far as I know, he does not have one. Besides, I am not sure about that. -At this moment there are good, not expensive, nationally produced photocameras being sold. - What else? - You could buy him a new radio. -Oh, this is a brilliant idea. I am sure that my friend will be content.

Lesson 36 - Russian with Ease ("who is barking?)

I., how does a cat mew? -Meow. -How does a cow low? -Moo. -Rooster? - Cock-a-doodle-doo. Smart boy, you know everything. And who growls "grr", the dog? -No, Grandma, when Grandpa doesn't wash the dishes.



I guess the differences are self-explanatory.


After that I decided to use the newest edition for its audio and cultural notes, and the 1951/1971 editions for actually learning the language. :lol:


blaurebell wrote:Also the one medical lesson seemed to be making fun of me since my health has been acting up a bit. I wish that one weren't so useful :cry:

Urgh, life always seems to remind us of these things just when we don't need it. I hope things improve for you soon!
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Re: Lilly's log - French and Russian

Postby Systematiker » Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:52 pm

blaurebell wrote: I wonder whether one day I will recover enough of my German to sound less like a moron :roll: Maybe once I get all my other languages to a solid C1 maintenance level the interference will reduce at least a little! Wishful thinking probably.



It'll come back. I englished very poorly when I was in the final revisions of my dissertation (and would routinely say "I cannot English today", so it has become a verb in our house) and I still had a great deal of clutter when I first moved back. These days I hardly ever start sentences in English that I can't finish in English, at least when speaking with monolingual English speakers. But, then, I also moved back to anglophone surroundings, so... :lol:
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Re: Lilly's log - French and Russian

Postby blaurebell » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:18 am

Ingaræð wrote:That's just reminded me of this post on HTLAL (Comparing Assimil Russian 1951/1971/2004):

After that I decided to use the newest edition for its audio and cultural notes, and the 1951/1971 editions for actually learning the language.


I did look for a comparison thread and found only the big thread that does this sort of comparison for all sorts of languages. There the overwhelming majority preferred the newest edition. To be honest apart from this particular text I've actually enjoyed this version so far. It's peppered with a good amount of humour and it's super difficult to make jokes that are understandable and not painfully dumb when the target audience has only a fairly basic grasp of the language. Also, due to the extreme amounts of grammar in Russian it's common that language courses, especially traditional ones, tend to cram way too much information into the material. All other Russian courses I have tried have had such a steep progression curve and so much information that somewhere along the way I got super frustrated and abandoned the course. So, with Russian it's probably good when a course is dumbed down a bit, most of them are way too complicated. I think it's also rather unfair to pick that particular text for comparison, because it's probably the dumbest one in the book, most texts - even the earliest simple dialogues - are much more useful and complex. Also, who would ever say "-At this moment there are good, not expensive, nationally produced photocameras being sold." I wouldn't and I'm a photographer!

By the way, the frustrating and obsessive "leave no gaps" nature of traditional Russian courses is also why I use a multitrack iterative approach now and start with Duolingo + Assimil + intensive reading and only then move on to a traditional course. That way only a part of the information in the traditional courses will be new and they might actually become doable.

And when I see that the oldest version has lots of original text meant for natives I have to say that this is actually *bad*. Even books for children tend to have such complicated sentence constructions that any learner will be completely overwhelmed by them. Last time round I tried to read a Russian re-narration of the Wizard of Oz and I couldn't parse half of the sentences even with a dictionary, because the word order was just mental! I only manage to do my intensive reading now because I'm reading a proper translation from English rather than a re-narration and it therefore has less of these overly Russian sentences. Instead of every second sentence there is only one of those on every page and I get gradually used to them. There is a reason why in Russian you can find strange upper intermediate courses to teach you to deal with native texts, because they are very complicated in comparison. I'd expect that I wouldn't want to see those kinds of texts in a Beginner's course.

I also think that the cultural insights are spot on in this version. In one of the earliest chapters there is an explanation why Russians always try to push insane amounts of food on you. My mum does that and I didn't know that this was cultural for the longest time. When I asked my mum about it she told me that she's actually much more moderate in that respect than most Russians. Apparently my aunt does it to such extremes that she even manages to drive my mum insane with it! In chapter 38 you will also find a very odd very Russian opinion, namely that reading ruins the eye sight. If you ever come into a Russian household where there are literally no books at all, you know why! Again, I thought this opinion was just a particularly strange excuse of my aunt, but apparently this is a wide-spread opinion. I just didn't know because my parents only had rather intellectual friends! It's quite special when a Russian course manages to give some cultural insights even to someone who is half Russian. I've never encountered such attention to detail in any other course.

So, my verdict so far is that this is an excellent course. It might not get you quite as far as one of the older courses, but a course that you can actually finish will always get you further than a course that is too complicated and makes you give up. I think people should expect to come out of Assimil with some fairly substantial gaps with a language like Russian. There just is no way to learn a language as complex as that "without toil". Besides, "without toil" goes against the Russian soul anyway :lol: So, all I expect from it is that it's a good first course to give an overview over the language. I'll plug the holes with one of the grammar torture courses afterwards (Modern Russian 1 and 2 probably). Those kinds of courses are unbearable as a first course because you have to go through a lot of "toil" and see only a minimal increase in comprehension along the way. This is especially arduous with Russian because there is so much more grammar to drill than in other languages. I can torture myself like that when I already understand native content and mostly have fun with the language, but it's definitely too painful and inefficient to break the comprehension barrier that way. I actually tried that and failed miserably. Considering that this is how Russian is usually taught, it's no wonder that so few learners succeed!

Ingaræð wrote:Urgh, life always seems to remind us of these things just when we don't need it. I hope things improve for you soon!


Thank you!
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Re: Lilly's log - French and Russian

Postby blaurebell » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:52 am

Systematiker wrote:It'll come back. I englished very poorly when I was in the final revisions of my dissertation (and would routinely say "I cannot English today", so it has become a verb in our house) and I still had a great deal of clutter when I first moved back.


Haha. In our house "braining" is a verb too, commonly used when too much braining has happened and all further content needs to be dumbed down for the rest of the day. It also appears in sentences excusing particularly poor language skills late at night.

Systematiker wrote:These days I hardly ever start sentences in English that I can't finish in English, at least when speaking with monolingual English speakers. But, then, I also moved back to anglophone surroundings, so... :lol:


Ah, there we have the problem! There are no plans for a move back to Germany. In fact the most common plan is to get as far away from Germany as possible ;) Such feelings tend to increase whenever I have to deal with German taxes or any other kind of tedious bureaucracy like university paperwork. On some days I longingly think back to my university days in England when I was just starving and cold rather than having my sanity challenged by this veritable "place that sends you mad" :roll:

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Re: Lilly's log - French and Russian

Postby Ingaræð » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:57 am

Sorry, I wasn't criticising your choice of edition/course, that post just popped into my head the moment I read what you'd written. :oops:

blaurebell wrote:Also, who would ever say "-At this moment there are good, not expensive, nationally produced photocameras being sold." I wouldn't and I'm a photographer!

It's a slightly altered, literal translation of (I think) the French base. That edition wasn't produced with an English base. The original sentence is: Сейчас в продаже есть хорошие и недорогие отечественные фотоаппараты.

Glad to know that the cultural insights are correct! Come to think of it, my Tante do a similar thing with food (especially Kuchen). I don't know if that's a German thing in general, or they're just trying to fatten me up. :D
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Re: Lilly's log - French and Russian

Postby blaurebell » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:56 pm

Ingaræð wrote:Sorry, I wasn't criticising your choice of edition/course, that post just popped into my head the moment I read what you'd written.


Not to worry, I didn't feel criticised. I just wanted to explain why "simpler" doesn't necessarily mean "worse" in this case. The current version might still be the best version out there precisely because it is not as challenging.

Ingaræð wrote:It's a slightly altered, literal translation of (I think) the French base. That edition wasn't produced with an English base. The original sentence is: Сейчас в продаже есть хорошие и недорогие отечественные фотоаппараты.


Oh, I didn't mean the actual wording, I meant the content. There is no such thing as cheap locally produced technology anymore unless you live in China. Globalisation has taken care of this little sentence. And of course the sentence was a lie even in 1971. There were never any "good" cameras produced in Russia anyway, at least speaking objectively. They were always clunky, unreliable, hard to use and had a ton of quirks, some of which affected image quality. They have been popular precisely because they produce rather unexpected results sometimes and although easily broken they are equally easy to repair. I myself only like old Russian/Soviet cameras because they are cheap and quirky - I've got 4 of them and I swear at them a lot. If I want a *good* camera or at least one that won't tear my film or do other weird things to it, I will use a German or Japanese one. So where it comes to "usefulness" I would rate this sentence as slightly below the one that grandma barks/growls at grandpa for not helping with the dishes. The latter is much closer to reality :lol:
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