Euskara, Cantonese

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Cymraeg, Euskara, (Svenska?)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:33 am

crush wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:I didn't quote everything as it was a rather large post. I just wanted to say thank you crush for giving me such a detailed reply. I'm going to take some screen shots so I don't lose this information. Thank you very much!

No problem! I'm always really excited when i see other people express an interest in Basque. I definitely think it's worth studying. I've met a few people who just used the Ikasten.net course and Mintzanet for language practice and after about a year of study were comfortable leaving the textbooks behind. I haven't been that consistent unfortunately, but i do keep coming back to it and now that i have someone learning it with me hopefully i can stick it through this time. It's not like it'll take you ten years before you can have a conversation, you really just need to learn the most common verb tenses/forms and as you get used to them the others will just come naturally. The rest, while a bit different from other languages, isn't all that complicated as Basque (at least Batua) is so regular.

I'm honestly not all that sure how widespread Batua is in France, but to me the French dialects do sound like someone speaking Basque with a French accent. But anyway, don't be afraid of Basque! I'm sure you'd have a lot of fun studying it. Did you know there's also a Basque mythology? Just as rich if not richer than that of the Romans/Greeks, unfortunately much of it has been lost due to the oral tradition of Basque, but what remains is still really interesting.


crush, I must be upfront with you. I am definitely interested in Basque, but will not study/learn it, unless I end up living/spending time in the region. At least that's my current thinking. Some time has passed since I asked those questions of you, and i'm still very grateful for the reply. However, I, like many other language learners suffer from wanderlust. Perhaps a little different from a good number of language learners is that, at least lately, I will hesitate in a big way, before even attempting to pronounce one syllable of a language that may hold little to no status in my every day life. I studied too many languages at once in the past with too slow progress. I learned to stop messing around and get down to business in one language. That language is French, and has been for a few years now.

I chose French, as my family and I would like to perhaps buy property or at least pass a good degree of time in France perhaps annually in the coming years. Although I think the interest in the language came before that plan, truth be told. In my language wanderlust I'm still known to read about various languages and explore the resources available out there, the status of the languages and so on.

As an avid language learner, like many of us on this forum, I figured it would be a nice experience to learn a minority language. I started exploring regional languages of France (reading about them), since it is there I plan to pass a good deal of time. However, I concluded that, if I take it upon myself to learn a regional language of France, best to choose the one I will in closest proximity to. For now I don't know where that will be. It's likely to be in southern France, but not necessarily in or near the Basque region, but time will tell. My point is, I am definitely interested in Basque as well as other regional/minority languages of France, but whether I go on to choose to study Basque, well, won't be evident for at least a couple of years I believe. Still, the feedback you've provided me will absolutely be explored and, I will potentially use every last bit of information you've provided if I choose Basque in the end.

I have passed through the region, very briefly I might add around 5 years ago, both on the French and Spanish sides. I found it particularly pretty (certainly not boring) from an aesthetics perspective, but I had next to no time to explore the region culturally. Unfortunately, though, I believe there are better choices if one is seeking the sun in southern France. Too much rain for my liking! Yet, the hills and mountains do attract me and I do find the Basque language a little more intriguing than Catalan or Occitan, although I do not dislike them.

Anyway, thank you again crush. I'll certainly be back to let you know if at some point I take it upon myself to attempt to learn this intriguing language. Oh and very interesting with regards to mythology!
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Re: Cymraeg, Euskara, (Svenska?)

Postby outcast » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:26 am

crush wrote:
outcast wrote: A good example is 多穿一点儿衣服 (more wear a few clothes). Southern Chinese, influenced by Cantonese may say 穿多, they place the adverb "more" after the verb, much as in English. In Mandarin it is ungrammatical, but people accept it.

That's just from influence from other languages such as Cantonese where 多 follows the verb rather than precedes it (食多啲, literally 吃多点). Another common thing is putting 先 after the verb (我走先 = 我先走了).

There are subtitles in every language that make it easier to express yourself and sound more native-like which take time to master. I think Mandarin as a whole is just much easier to get to grips with. The real difficulty in my opinion is the vocabulary and literary language. Learning the characters is just a huge time investment, after around 1,000 characters it really starts to sit in, but it takes a long time to get to the point where you recognize most words in a text. And for literary language, you will also come across more chengyu than you will in the spoken language. Even now, i can watch TV shows/movies generally without too much of an issue, talk, chat online, etc. but reading more than a few sentences is still a huge chore for me. I just need more practice, i suppose.


Yeah, the reading part is just eye-training and has little to do with your actual comprehension. When you read this text, you are reading "you don't need to look at every letter to know the word", and what is being read are the chunks of words and not "y o u - d o n ' t - n e e d - t o - l o o k"... In essence, you are reading characters. "EVERY" is immediately recognized as a group and it is automatic to see it as such. When you are learning a new language, what makes reading so tough is we are reading the letters. That is still the case with me and Hangul. Only slowly do some words now just pop out as an integral unit. As you said, this is indeed just visual practice and little to do with actual language learning. Reading Chinese is the same: because there are so many characters to master, this just takes longer, and it is tiring to the eyes to read until you really get used to it.

I think most people agree with you about Chinese grammar, since I have read this quite a few times before, heck, even the old HTLAL had Chinese Grammar down as one of the few "breaks" in learning this language for westerners. I just don't entirely agree, I have found the grammar (mainly word order, correct use of aspect, and syllable balance), a bit of a challenge!
Last edited by outcast on Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cymraeg, Euskara, (Svenska?)

Postby crush » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:08 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:...I do find the Basque language a little more intriguing than Catalan or Occitan, although I do not dislike them.

Anyway, thank you again crush. I'll certainly be back to let you know if at some point I take it upon myself to attempt to learn this intriguing language. Oh and very interesting with regards to mythology!

No worries! If you are just interested in a minority language Catalan or Occitan will definitely be more accessible to you and a stepping stone towards other Romance languages if you get interested in any of the other nearby languages (Spanish, Italian, etc.). It'll definitely be much easier to study/use Catalan than Occitan (it's probably easier to learn Catalan first then Occitan anyway even if you just wanted to learn Occitan). In any case, enjoy your studies!
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Re: Euskara, Cantonese, Afrikaans

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:31 am

The Basque Language: A Practical Introduction gets a lot of very positive reviews on amazon. Looks worthwhile indeed.
https://www.amazon.com/Basque-Language-Practical-Introduction/dp/0874178959/ref=nav_ya_signin?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1482354876&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Basque+Language&

Being a fan of Assimil courses so far, and with French being my strongest foreign language, I would definitely try my hand early on at Assimil - Le Basque unifié, were I to take on the language.
https://www.amazon.fr/Basque-Unifi%C3%A9-Initiation-Livre/dp/2700501918/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482357341&sr=8-1&keywords=le+basque+unifi%C3%A9

However, I think were I to really get serious about the language, i'd also return to learning Spanish- either concurrently with Basque or before taking it on. It seems that the availability of materials in Spanish is superior to any other language medium. And of course, once again, early on, I would try the Spanish version of the Assimil Basque course (i'm providing links in case others are interested in this discussion, or are curious about what I'm referring to).
https://www.amazon.com/Assimil-Iniciacion-euskara-book-Castillian/dp/2700502426/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1482357599&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=liniciacion+euskara

Standard Basque: A Progressive Grammar is huge, but if I ever get serious, I'll certainly be obtaining it, provided i'm not stuck for space or limited by weight (I could be living on a cloud, or floating on a piece of wood post ship wreck, in which case I can only hope they provide a digital copy, then that I have a water-proof and solar powered digital e-reader capable of withstanding the strongest of rays- both from the sun and the sea!).
https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Basque-Progressive-Grammar-Linguistics/dp/0262042428/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1482359269&sr=1-1&keywords=Basque+a+progressive+grammar#customerReviews

I followed, for the most part, the discussion about creating a Basque course for Duolingo. I can see there's a number of enthusiastic people. I hope this happens soon!
https://www.duolingo.com/comment/7674974
One of the users who had contributed to the discussion, provided a link to an interesting article on Ustaritz no the French side of the Basque Country, attempting to officially instigate bilingualism in their region (article in French just below). I really hope some time soon the French government wakes up, but unfortunately I think that's unlikely, in which case I hope the people just take it upon themselves to do much more to preserve their languages wherever they may be.
http://www.sudouest.fr/2014/06/27/langue-basque-anticonstitutionnelle-la-deliberation-d-ustaritz-ira-au-tribunal-administratif-1598999-4018.php

Then found the link to the article you yourself wrote on building a case for Basque on Duolingo. Great stuff crush! ;)
https://www.duolingo.com/comment/7736533
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Re: Euskara, Cantonese, Afrikaans

Postby crush » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:56 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:However, I think were I to really get serious about the language, i'd also return to learning Spanish- either concurrently with Basque or before taking it on. It seems that the availability of materials in Spanish is superior to any other language medium. And of course, once again, early on, I would try the Spanish version of the Assimil Basque course (i'm providing links in case others are interested in this discussion, or are curious about what I'm referring to).

Spanish would definitely help, but it's not necessary. There's a person over at the Unilang forums who's studied Basque to an advanced level with no knowledge of Spanish (other than the words everyone knows in the US, i suppose). The Ikasten.net course has an English version, The Basque Language is in English, and the two grammars i mentioned earlier (the student's grammar and the progressive grammar you mention) are both in English. So i wouldn't feel obligated to learn Spanish unless you were interested in Spanish itself, as apart from a couple borrowings here and there there's not much that will transfer over from Spanish. Basque does have a distinction similar to Spanish's ser/estar (izan/egon), but not all speakers make that distinction, i think the Eastern/French dialects tend to avoid it completely.

The Assimil course is alright, i found it really hard when i studied it though. I had to read the explanations many times and analyze each dialog pretty closely and there were often still a couple things i wasn't too sure about. And it's really just an A1 level course. It's a shame, the Catalan course is amazing, i wish they'd put out courses of a similar quality for the other regional languages of the peninsula.

PeterMollenburg wrote:...Duolingo...

Yeah, i've been pushing for a course there for almost two years now. We've got a slew of qualified volunteers lined up (including people who teach Basque professionally and a Basque philologist), so it's just a waiting game now i guess. Trying to get more organizations interested/committed and putting pressure on Duolingo to actually add it. But then you would need Spanish :P
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Re: Euskara, Cantonese, Afrikaans

Postby Systematiker » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:30 pm

I've recently started dabbling in Basque, through Spanish - I'm glad to know there's some other people interested on the forum if I get serious about it.
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Re: Euskara, Cantonese, Afrikaans

Postby tarvos » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:41 pm

But the reality is if you really want to be able to manipulate Mandarin Chinese well, you need to be able to master many of the subtleties. Because they are subtle, people think they aren't there. Easy example:

老师来了。(Teacher is coming)
来老师了。 (Comes teacher)

Totally different context for those two sentences, just by switching one word around. The first sentence has a context of being definite (the teacher the speaker and listener both know, or have been waiting for); the second sentence has an indefinite context (a teacher is coming, and that's all, here only a fact is being presented). In most languages this would be addressed via explicit grammar constructs, in Chinese it is simply a matter of word order. Like this there are many many other examples. In fact there is one involving the use of 才 (only / only then, for events that happen or are completed later than one had expected, or later than what is considered normal). Just putting the phrase with 才 before or after made two sentences have complete different meanings. But I lost my notes on that one, so upset!


In my opinion, this sort of thing is best learned from context and by emulating native speakers. I don't know where you live in China, because I am very aware of the dialectical variations (or basically language diversity), but I lived in the north and north-east (Beijing and Hebei province), but many of those things you will learn from talking to people and going out with them. It's the same in Spanish - many of the more common word order tricks become much more apparent when you're around people.

As for the reality of mastering subtleties, that goes for every language. Every language contains nuances we have to discover for ourselves (I discovered a Spanish one today, and I am pretty confident in my Spanish!). Mandarin, English and some other languages such as Dutch are much more prone to dialectical variation and thus people aren't so fussed about word order mistakes, but subtleties exist in English and Dutch as much as they do in Mandarin. Learning them and mastering them is part of the C-level learning process.
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Re: Euskara, Cantonese, Afrikaans

Postby Expugnator » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:21 pm

crush wrote:We've got a slew of qualified volunteers lined up (including people who teach Basque professionally and a Basque philologist), so it's just a waiting game now i guess. Trying to get more organizations interested/committed and putting pressure on Duolingo to actually add it.


How do you do the part of putting pressure on Duolingo to actually add it? I've filled an application for starting a course for another language and got no feedback from them, despite having a topic with several replies of people interested and quite a few lingots shared.
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Re: Euskara, Cantonese, Afrikaans

Postby crush » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:59 pm

Expugnator wrote:How do you do the part of putting pressure on Duolingo to actually add it? I've filled an application for starting a course for another language and got no feedback from them, despite having a topic with several replies of people interested and quite a few lingots shared.

Being active in the discussions, mentioning Basque, getting other media to make posts about it (and posting those links in the discussions at Duolingo), finding more volunteers, etc. We've had a Basque center in Brazil commit to helping put the course out as well as some folks from different institutions in the Basque Country including HABE, the official institution to teach Basque to adults in the Basque Country. Basically how all the "smaller" languages i can think of got added (Welsh, Irish, Catalan).

We just send out e-mails to different institutions, some say they can't collaborate but almost all respond and express interest in the project, some even make posts on their websites about it. It's a slow process but i believe that eventually we'll get there.
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Re: Euskara, Cantonese, Afrikaans

Postby crush » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:08 am

Well, it's been another half year since my last update. There've been a couple fairly large life changes as usual (like moving back to the states from China) but i've been able to keep up pretty well.

Basque:
My Basque is going slowly but surely, Keys and i finally got the Basque Mythology book fully translated in interlinear format and i'm going through that and adding in more idiomatic translations and cleaning the whole thing up a bit, so i'm excited to get it 100% done. There're also some more stories lined up by a current author which are interesting and which i'm really excited about.

Cantonese:
I'm on the final stretch of the Glossika course. I'm excited to finish it up. I've been chatting some online in Cantonese lately, but it's tough since it's more of a spoken language than written. Still, i'm starting to feel more comfortable using it. I've also picked up a couple grammar books (i haven't used any grammar books up to now, it's been basically 100% Glossika). The first book was Basic Cantonese by Virginia Yip and Stephen Matthews, based on the reviews i kinda assumed it was more of an essential Cantonese grammar, but as the title says it's pretty basic (and doesn't include characters, which i'm not too concerned about to be honest). I've been reading through it pretty quickly, doing the exercises, and picking up some small things here and there but not a whole lot. If anyone else is learning Cantonese, i'd be happy to pass this book on to them when i'm done with it.

I also picked up Intermediate Cantonese, the follow-up book to the first one, this one is the second edition and does include characters. I've scanned through it and it seems pretty nice. I like the format of both books. There's also a comprehensive grammar put out by the same authors and which i'll probably pick up after getting through these two books.

After Glossika, i've been thinking of going through the FSI course. I think it's a bit dated, but i feel like i can still get a lot from it.

Afrikaans:
After finding out that i had to come back to the states, i kinda dropped Afrikaans. I really like it as a language, though, and would take it up again if i had the opportunity to be around the language again. I might just switch over to Dutch at some point.

Spanish:
I haven't really touched Spanish in a while, so i bought a couple grammar books/workbooks to go through and review. I've also been thinking of taking advantage of my proximity to Mexico/Latin America and heading down that way for some time. I also have a couple friends/acquaintances interested in learning Spanish and have been considering putting them through a Spanish workout regimen ;)

Wanderlust:
I'm getting close to the point of feeling confident in Cantonese and have been tossing around a few languages to fill in the gap when i finish the Cantonese courses, the two main ones are Tagalog (there are a ton of Tagalog speakers here) and Greek, and i still really, really love Welsh (kinda like a little Basque). Or renewing older languages like French or German, but being comfortable at least passively with them already makes putting the effort into activating them with no immediate plans to use them less exciting than starting something new :P I think if i find work in this area, i'll probably go with Tagalog, otherwise, not sure.
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