In Japan 12 Jan 18 - 10 April 18

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SophiaMerlin_II
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In Japan 12 Jan 18 - 10 April 18

Postby SophiaMerlin_II » Sat May 28, 2016 1:14 am

***update***
I am very lazy, but soon I will be in Japan 88 days, so that’s my last real chance to start actually learning Japanese!


*** Regularly Scheduled Programming ***

What I Want to Learn:

Japanese: Media, Shinto, Personal Interest
Spanish: Conversation, Convenience, and legacy
French: Philosophy & religious theory
German: Philosophy, religious theory, legacy
Russian: Long epic novels, some religious theory, professional interest (Maths and Sciences)
Latin: Religious Texts and commentary
Greek: Religious Texts and commentary
Hebrew: Religious texts and commentary, legacy
Swedish: Personal Interest (Music)
Esperanto: Personal Interest (for Writing)
Mandarin: Professional interest (Maths and Sciences)

Stupid quotes from people I know:

Esperanto is primarily derived from Norwegian vocabulary. It is no way related to Romance languages.


Now, I confess I don't know much about Norwegian, but...


List of Materials for Future Reference:

OLD ENGLISH
Prof Drout reading Beowulf

JAPANESE
hukumusume.com – 6 folktales and stories each day in Japanese, many with Audio
Aoitori Bunko – Japanese novels aimed at 12 y/o, full furigana
JCAT Japanese Language Test
tsubasabunko.jp/menu – more tween reading material
sosekiproject.org/ – mid/high level reading
Remember to research Kuzushiji (Cursive Characters)

KOREAN

vonPeterhof wrote:Instead of thinking of Korean speech levels as a continuous ladder it might be more helpful to think of it as a grid with politeness on one axis and formality on the other.


SPANISH
Cervantes Placement Test

Ceclia (Biography)
Los Destinos 60 episodes w/ sassy shoulderpads

"Spanish Verbs: Ser and Estar. Key to Mastering the Language" Juan and Susan Serrano
"Correct your Spanish Blunders" Jean Yates

Daína Chaviano (S/F)
Terry Prachett translated
Felix Balma (Steampunk)
"El fin de los suenos" Campbell y Cotrina
"El Principe de la niebla" Carlos Ruiz Zafon (YA, Magical/Realism)
"El Marciano" Andy Weir (Novel, Astronauts)

Noticias en Practica Español -- news stories graded from A1-C2


FRENCH
“French for Reading” by Sandberg and Tatham
“Cours de Langue et de Civilisation Francaises” by Gaston Mauger (Books 1-4)
Le Déchronologue, by Stéphane Beauverger (novel; Alternate History)

Subjunctivisor is a website that helps you decide to use the subjunctive or indicitive
House (dubbed)
ER (dubbed)
“Le retour de Martin Guerre” (movie)

D'Accord – La Prononciation du Francais Internationale: Acquisition et Perfectionnement

RUSSIAN
Sergei Esenin (Poet)
“мы” by Zamyatin
"Как стать полиглотом" Spivak (Non-Fiction/Memoir)
“A Book of Russian Idioms Illustrated” MI Dubrovin
Jules Verne is translated
habrababr.ru – articles in russian
issuu.com/pulseuk – newspaper
issuu.com/angliya – newspaper

Blaurebell wrote:So a good progression would be: Wyner's pronunciation trainer while doing Russian World 1 on Youtube, followed by Assimil + Duolingo (worthwhile until the last Checkpoint, painful and useless beyond that), Modern Russian 1, New Penguin Russian or Russisch mit System if you want to do laddering and then Modern Russian 2. I suspect that after Modern Russian 2 I will probably still need more drilling for verbs of motion and aspect. Ah, Russian grammar ! And of course none of that is enough to read without a dictionary because Russian has insane amounts of vocabulary I found that half of Duolingo was enough to start intensive reading, but it's hard work / decryption meets black magic. There are so few cognates in general and the word order is insane too!

As you can see, you're replacing a language that you get almost for free after French and Spanish with one that can be summed up with grammar gulag meets black magic



GERMAN
"Klipp un Klar” grammar
“Ubungsgrammatik fu:r Anfa:nger” Hueber (u:/a: = u/a with umlaut)
Deutsche Welle (Graded Audio)
Kack & Sachgeschichten - Der Podcast mit Klugschiss! (What philosophical approaches represent the figures in Watchmen - and where does Spongebob poop? The Kack and Sachgeschichte throw an analytical view on pop culture, games, series and pursue a goal: the perfect mix of crap and surplus value.) http://www.podcast.de/podcast/613365/
GEO Audio (Background stories, interviews with GEO reporters and experts - travel focused. New podcast every Thursday.) http://www.podcast.de/podcast/2166/

NORWEGIAN
The Artemis Fowl books are available in Norwegian.

DANISH
“Persisk kronologi og længden af jødernes babyloniske fangenskab” Rolf J.Furuli (Non-Fiction)

SWEDISH
“Konsten att lära sig språk” Erik Gunnemark
Last edited by SophiaMerlin_II on Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:41 am, edited 14 times in total.
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Re: Sophia's 2016 Log

Postby SophiaMerlin_II » Sun May 29, 2016 9:01 am

I've always been really fascinated by books in foreign lanaguages. I love to look them over, to leaf through them. To me, my thought is always, "There's something in there, and I can't know it, because I can't read that", and to me, that's such an inspiring challenge to me.

And I have to admit, I have been really inspired by reading all the way through the logs of Bakunin, Iguanamon, and James29. I'm reading through the logs of other people one by one. I'm sure I'll mention who I read from time to time.

But to be honest, I think my biggest inspiration so far has been Arguelles. After I saw his video of his routine, I knew that it really would be possible for me to learn a lot of languages. I've read interviews with him, and various things written by him scattered about. Seriously my biggest inspiration.

===

JAPANESE
My Japanese is at such a low level that I feel the goal I picked for AV material is kind of like hitting my brain with a brick made of Japanese. It also doesn't help much that I picked this material because it's long, rather than for the level of enjoyment I get out of it. In fact, I won't get to content I enjoy for about another 60-70 days.

Just from the sheer pain/frustration of it all, I'm listening to it more as background sound versus watching it. Despite that, I've actually made quite a lot of progress because of the repetitive dialogue. My comprehension has gone up from about 1% to about 6%, and I think that's pretty awesome. I've put in about 30hr so far like this, and I'm just going to keep trucking. I'm actually kind of blown away by how much progress I've made, though my brain is doing this weird thing where Japanese seems both more and less foreign. I guess it's because I understand more and more of the words, but the grammar is still alien to me.

But, my method is a little bit weak in some things, so I'm going to change it a little bit, without slowing down the amount of media I consume.

  • Look up words and phrases from the Japanese subtitles each day.
  • Rewind the first half of the day's first episode, and try to understand the words.
  • Continue memorizing Kanji (I'll throw a little celebration when I've memorized all the Grade 1 Kanji)
  • Cover 1 point of grammar every day in the Tae Kim guide. I'm starting with it because it's easily accessible online. When I finally finish it, or when I can't stand it anymore (because it's online), I'll buy the Complete Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar.

I've been considering getting a tutor, but I'm honestly too embarrassed to explain my goals to one if they asked me.

SPANISH
I ordered "Tornados en Martes" and it should arrive Tuesday or Wednesday. I remember reading the English version as a kid and it was pretty straightforward and juvenile. For those unfamiliar with the Magic Treehouse series, it's aimed at children who are about 7-10 years old.

I plan to read books from the series until I'm comfortable, then move to YA.

I can't explain how much I just want to be fluent already.

I'm also considering getting those stickers for my keyboard, so I'll know where all my punctuation is when I switch to a Spanish keyboard. And considering also getting a tutor. I don't know. I'm quite shy.

ESPERANTO
I continue to plug away at my Duolinguo tree. I'm not really fooling myself into thinking that I'm learning anything. I don't remember most anything that I'm learning. When I finish the tree I'll get a proper grammar and a novel in Esperanto. Something translated, like Alice in Wonderland.

OTHER LANGUAGES
In general, I'm just considering doing basic things, like learning alphabets and letters. I can't keep my mind in any one place, honestly.

Old English
I'm dreaming of it, especially after that video posted on the Old English thread of Prof Michael Drout reading Beowulf.

===
I sometimes wish I never had to sleep -- I could learn so much more in those hours!

And, as a parting point, I think that the most important skill when you are learning a language, after dedication, is to realized when you are missing something, like a cultural reference, or a point of grammar, or that some word must have another meaning, or that you've used the wrong word. In the long run, I think it'll take you farther than just about anything else.
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Re: Sophia's 2016 Log

Postby Cavesa » Mon May 30, 2016 5:18 pm

SophiaMerlin_II wrote:I wonder if anyone could recommend a Spanish language author who writes somewhat like Peter F Hamilton (Space Opera), Garth Nix and Tamora Pierce (Fantasy YA with strong female characters), Douglas Adams and Terry Prachett (SF/F Satire)? Just that genre is fine, I don't necessarily mean the author's particular style.



Let's keep looking together. What I guess you might find interesting:
1.the Spanish translation of Terry Pratchett is excellent and a great learning tool. Sure, it is not easy. But if you know his books almost by heart, as me, it shouldn't be a problem and you'll learn a lot. A con: yeah, it is a translation and not an originally Spanish book. A huge pro: it's Terry Pratchett!
2.There is SF and Fantasy originally in Spanish (and awesome!), it is just no that easy to find at the beginning. Felix Palma seems to be a very popular steampunk writer (I am still waiting for the book by him I ordered two months ago) and I've read a lot of praise of his works. I've read El fin de los suenos by Campbell y Cotrina (don't let the name fool you, it is an original Spanish book) and I can wholeheartedly recommend it. And the main hero is a girl. I have yet to discover more.
3.Carlos Ruiz Zafon is very popular these days and some of his books border fantasy (especially those for young readers) but he is more of a magical realism author, I'd say. No wonder, that is one of the most important genres of the hispanophone literature. But you could sort his trillogy El principe de la niebla (that is the trilogy for young readers) as well among thrillers or horrors, I'd say.

I am likely to become a regular reader of your log. And I hope you won't keep the discovered Spanish space operas for yourself!
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Re: Sophia's 2016 Log

Postby SophiaMerlin_II » Tue May 31, 2016 4:29 am

Cavesa, thank you so much for your answer! If I find anything worth reading (or worth avoiding) I'll be sure to let everyone know.

---

I'm honestly feeling kind of... pessimistic. It comes and goes though, so hopefully I'll feel better soon!

On my list of things to do: learning IPA, and collecting lists of about 300-700hr of audio/av material for each of the languages that I'm interested in (I have Japanese very much covered. I have 1440hr AV material lined up, and planned out)

I want so badly to get an italki teacher/tutor, but I am just so nervous and am not sure exactly how to explain my current level and my goals. I suppose what I really want is a teacher to give me some kind of structure and challenge me, but it's so anxiety producing that I'll probably just continue on my own.

This is not really meant to be a daily log, but I'm just kind of excited about languages at the moment, so I'm posting pretty frequently. It will drop off given time.

SPANISH
I'm trying to do a small grammar point every day, starting again at the very basics. I do mean the VERY basics. For example, yesterday I worked on noun genders.

I was worried that I wouldn't understand much of that book I ordered (Tornadoes en Martes), but it was actually a reading level or two lower than I thought. My comprehension, based on the first page, is ~85%. So I picked a book right about at my level. It's about 5K words and aimed at grade 3 students (8 y/o). I would say it's pretty firmly n+1 content (maybe n+1 ½ XD). I'm going to order another one tomorrow (same series). My plan after that is to use the American “AR” system of grading school books, and just find translations of those until I'm comfortable with grade 12 books. It's the only way I can think of to know that the books I'm reading are going to be an appropriate challenge for me. After I hit this grade 12 level, I'll switch to native books. I might not be able to help myself, and just read native books before that also.

I estimate it will take me about 10 days to read Tornados en Martes. I'm going to try to just read a chapter every day. It's a very short book, under 75 pages, including all the photos. I shouldn't get too frustrated.

JAPANESE
I'm using Tae Kim's guide for the time being (did I already say this?)

Went over 「は」. I watched an episode with an ear for it. I must seriously be missing it because I really don't hear it very often :/ Sometimes I know where it is being used, and it sounds more like 「あ」. I also seem to be having a lot of trouble hearing the「ん」sound when it's really not there, for example hearing「ません」when it's actually「ませ」... I'm not exactly sure how to fix this issue, but it's a really important distinction! It's going to be a major roadblock to my Japanese listening skills. Suggestions appreciated.

I tried to go back to a previous episode and watch it while keeping pace with the transcripts, but they were in subtitle format, so they're going to need some formatting. I really couldn't keep up, but then again I can't read (just being honest) so that probably plays a factor.

Due to my massive audio input, Japanese is starting to seem much slower than before. It's sort of the same effect as when I got used to Telemundo. I'm not saying my brain can keep up actively – honestly even when I know the words, I still lag way behind – what I'm saying is that my brain is starting to see how quickly they talk as the normal pace for speech DESPITE the fact that I can't actually keep up.

I'm quickly approaching the audio tipping point, like the one I experienced in Spanish 5 years ago. This is really, really good, and I honestly didn't think I would hit the first one for at least 70 more hours. I'm nearly at 31 hours combined (passive + active listening), but that's not different from Spanish tipping point 1 now that I think about it. I can't explain the difference very well verbally, but there's this sort of mental shift where my brain says “oh, so we really DO need to learn this, it isn't just gibberish”. It's not a skill shift, so much as a mental one. I estimate I'll hit the second point (churning words and sentence fragments in my head) about 250 hours in.

I've dropped my kanji comprehension to “character recognition” and one reading. I try to “know” a character rather than memorizing the English meaning – for 「左」I gesture with my left hand, for「目」I gesture to my eye. Some of the other reading I do know already, which is proof that they'll come with time.

I'd really like to bump up my active Japanese work, and right now it's about 8% active, 92% passive. But no matter what, I want to make my audio goals for the year, which is about 4 to 4 ½ hours of Japanese audio/AV every day. I seriously have ~350 days of audio/AV planned out. I'm very serious about getting Japanese up to level. Even if I only listen to 28 passive hours of Japanese a week, I know that it will help me. It's a bit crazy, and to be honest, not -all- of it is going to be passive. I hope by the end of the period to be able to do it 100% active. Who needs sleep anyway?


ENGLISH
As a curiousity, I took the test at testyourvocab.com and got an estimate of 26,800 words which I actually find to be quite small. Then again, it was testing words that you could provide a definition for, rather than one's you just know that they mean. For me there is a very large difference. I pretty much took the test to try to estimate what size I should be satisfied with in TL vocabulary size estimates.

I've started to reread THUD! by Prachett. It's about 115K, and I estimate it will take me about 7 ½ hours because my reading speed in English has really fallen off in the last year. I don't want to become fluent in another language and accidentally get stupid in English! I've already gotten 100 pages in, and plan to be done Thursday afternoon.

ESPERANTO
My diversionary tactic seems to be working. Just doing a little bit each day keeps me from neglecting Japanese. I think I'm going to just make this a normal feature of doing a language and dealing with wanderlust – rather than deny myself, instead allow myself to do a very small amount of work everyday on the basics for a fixed length (like duolinguo or a beginner's course). It's not that Esperanto isn't important to me – it's actually extremely important to me. Once I have a decent level, I plan to write most things in Esperanto. I hate the foothold of English.

TBH, I'm chomping at the bit to read/write Esperanto.
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Re: Sophia's 2016 Log

Postby Sizen » Tue May 31, 2016 6:05 am

Edit: I was dealing with an issue regarding an account of mine that had been compromised as I read your post and typed this response, and just now realized I completely misunderstood the problem. I'll leave this here anyway, just in case it's of any interest. Oof. I think I should probably go to bed now.

SophiaMerlin_II wrote:I also seem to be having a lot of trouble hearing the「ん」sound when it's really not there, for example hearing「ません」when it's actually「ませ」.

It's time to explore the magic land of ん! To quote Transformers: "Hiragana, more than meets the eyes!" I actually haven't studied Japanese phonology, so what I'm about to say is simply what I've personally observed. There might be someone else here who'd be better adapted to giving you advice (you know who you are).

Depending on its surroundings, ん can have many different values and can even modify the preceding vowel.

Before labial consonants (b, p, m), it becomes "m". Hence why "senpai" is often written as "sempai" on the internet.

Before velar consonants (k, g), it becomes "ng". As result, a word like "ginkou" is pronounced "gingkou".

Before most alveolar consonants (t, d, n, r, ch, z, j), it is pronounced as a regular "n".

At the end of words, either one of two things can happen in my experience. 1: it is pronounced as a uvular nasal. Or 2: the preceding vowel is nasalized and the ん is silent. I think this is what you're hearing.

Before vowels (a, i, u, e, o), semi-vowels (y, w), sh and s, it nasalizes the preceding vowel. I've heard that it's supposed to become some sort of indiscriminate nasal vowel itself, but I guess my ear isn't good enough to hear that happening.

Hope this helps!
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Re: Sophia's 2016 Log

Postby SophiaMerlin_II » Tue May 31, 2016 8:35 am

Sizen wrote:Edit: I was dealing with an issue regarding an account of mine that had been compromised as I read your post and typed this response, and just now realized I completely misunderstood the problem. I'll leave this here anyway, just in case it's of any interest. Oof. I think I should probably go to bed now.


Thank you for leaving this response, even if it didn't quite cover what I was asking :) These are all really good things to know anyway.

I learned a long time ago that the whole "kana are pronounced as they are written" bit is... quite misleading. 「い」and「う」often go on vacations,「ん」, like you said, has a tendency to sound more like an "m" in quite a few situations. In fact, until kana were reformed 「ん」was written as with one of the "m" characters (も or む I think).
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Re: Sophia's 2016 Log

Postby Elenia » Tue May 31, 2016 1:58 pm

SophiaMerlin_II wrote:I tried to go back to a previous episode and watch it while keeping pace with the transcripts, but they were in subtitle format, so they're going to need some formatting. I really couldn't keep up, but then again I can't read (just being honest) so that probably plays a factor.


Do you study the transcripts separately? If not, it's worth trying. Give yourself time to read and understand them, then try following the audio along with or without them (or both, if you can handle the repetition!)
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Re: Sophia's 2016 Log

Postby Hank » Tue May 31, 2016 2:09 pm

SophiaMerlin_II wrote:I'm honestly feeling kind of... pessimistic. It comes and goes though, so hopefully I'll feel better soon!


Hang in there! Maybe a couple of weeks into my Spanish learning I got so frustrated that I wanted to quit. It didn't feel like any Spanish was sticking in my brain. Of course, Duolingo's weird sentences didn't help. I persevered only because of my strong desire to learn another language. Pessimism and frustration are just a part of language learning IMO. Just keep fighting and remembering why you're learning a new language. Thankfully it has been quite a while since I got really frustrated.

It sounds like you and I are studying languages for the same reason. Just because it's cool! :lol:

Buena suerte con tu viaje de lenguas.
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Re: Sophia's 2016 Log

Postby SophiaMerlin_II » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:22 am

Do you study the transcripts separately? If not, it's worth trying.


I was for a while, but then I got sort of bogged down in it. I think I'll start up again, and just do it a little bit at a time, so I don't feel so overwhelmed. I keep kicking myself, thinking, "Wow, I'm so stupid/illiterate" -- but if I don't do anything, then I'll always stay that way!

Thank you for the encouragement!

Hang in there!

Pessimism and frustration are just a part of language learning IMO. Just keep fighting and remembering why you're learning a new language.

Buena suerte con tu viaje de lenguas.


Thank you so much! Everyone here is just so nice.

I actually meant something more like I'm depressed. I don't like to put it that way. It's honestly hard to get out of bed at the moment. I spent about 12 hours today just lying in bed, not even asleep, just laying there. So I'm having to cut back on everything, but I'm working to keep on track.

===========

JAPANESE
The more AV I watch, the more I understand why people say that you shouldn't learn Japanese from them. For the first time in my life I'm really able to hear what people are saying in anime and to be able to follow along with it, and if one were to watch just "Big 3" type anime, they would have really rude speech. :shock: I feel badly for any exchange students who came up against this issue in action!

I went over 「も」today and how it's different from「は」then watched for 20min, listening for it. It went much better than the 「は」exercise yesterday.

Honestly, my comprehension is moving forward at lightning speed. It's so amazing and I can hardly believe it. But then again, some AV is basically it's own SRS. Watch Claymore with subtitles in one sitting and tell me if you didn't learn that 許さない(ゆるさない) means unforgivable/unpardonable/unallowable.

Based on the difficulty I'm having with life in general in the last few days, I've decided to drop down from 12 eps to 1-3 until I feel better.

SPANISH
I went over the second half of gendered nouns. Not like that is anything new. Just doing one grammar point at a time like I said I would.

I was so excited by getting my book, even if it is a grade 3 book. It's right about the complexity I can handle, so that's what counts right? I entered all the new terms into Anki, doing about 5 new ones each day so I don't get overwhelmed, and I'll do chapter 2 when I'm done learning new words in Anki.

Chapter Summary I wrote:En Tornado en Martes Capitulo Uno, los hermanos Jack y Annie van a la casa de árbol. Ellos leen una nota de Morgana le Fay y buscan un libro que envían a la padera.


I also tried to write some sentences with the new vocabulary. As you can tell, I haven't really thought about Spanish in about 4-5 years...

Vocab Sentences I wrote:El bosque tiene muchos árboles. Un árbol es madera y tiene muchas ramas. La casa de árbol es in la copa de árbol y está encantada. Los hermanos tiene el deseo a descubrir cosas nuevas y ambos suben la escalera de soga.
--
Los libros está en un montón.
--
El tren cruza la pradera.


Yeah... I know it's bad. It'll get better with time, I hope.

ENGLISH
Found an interesting song called "Sock 'n' Doll" by Kontrust.

I got to page 150 of THUD! Man, I really love Prachett, it's such a painful thing that he's gone now. Seriously a loss.

I made a reading plan for all the books that I have in English, switching back and forth between fiction and non-fiction. I read very slowly now. I only think I read 3-4 books in the last year. How sad :oops: I used to read 1-2 each week.
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Re: Sophia's 2016 Log

Postby Elenia » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:51 am

SophiaMerlin_II wrote:Thank you so much! Everyone here is just so nice.

I actually meant something more like I'm depressed. I don't like to put it that way. It's honestly hard to get out of bed at the moment. I spent about 12 hours today just lying in bed, not even asleep, just laying there. So I'm having to cut back on everything, but I'm working to keep on track.


Take care of yourself. Knowing when you need to cut back is good, don't let languages negatively impact your own mental health.

SophiaMerlin_II wrote:I made a reading plan for all the books that I have in English, switching back and forth between fiction and non-fiction. I read very slowly now. I only think I read 3-4 books in the last year. How sad :oops: I used to read 1-2 each week.


I've had that problem too - side effect of doing a literature degree was that I stopped reading! My main problem isn't so much my reading speed, instead it's the fact that when I put a book down I often find it very difficult to pick back up again. I have another friend who also says she gets slower as she gets older.
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