Systematiker's attempt at a log

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Systematiker
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Languages: ENG (N); DEU (C2+) // SWG (~C1); BAR (~C1); SPA (4/3); FRA (~C1); SCO (~C1); NLD (~B2*); LAT (Latinum Bavaricum); GRC (Graecum Bavaricum); CAT (~B2*); POR (~B2*); SWE (~B2*); HBO (Hebraicum); DAN (~B1*); RUS (~A2); KOR (~A1); FAS (still a raw beginner)
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7332
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Re: Systematiker's attempt at a log

Postby Systematiker » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:11 am

Again, I'm still here, and not ill - eventually I'll find time to update what I've mentioned, and what I've been doing, including adventures with the US military, high-stakes Spanish, and getting old(er).

But not tonight, I'm still exhausted.
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Systematiker
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7332
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Re: Systematiker's attempt at a log

Postby Systematiker » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:59 am

OK, so here I am. I'm still pretty rocked from everything that's been happening, and my language efforts continue to feel it - the little guy has been ill up to pretty much today, and today isn't 100%, so that's been a big factor.

Friday was quite an adventure. I had a final interview for the process of serving the US Air Force Reserve as a chaplain - which meant a four-hour drive there and back, in theory. Halfway there, my car broke down - but fortunately, I planned six hours for a four hour drive, and managed to make it after all. That's the last hurdle, and doing that a couple of times a year will be a nice experience.

During the interview, I did have a "surprise" set of questions in Spanish and German. I knew the Spanish was coming - one of the interviewers had a clearly hispanic surname and a slight accent, so I was sort of prepared (it's on my CV); nonetheless, I mangled the subjunctive and generally performed more poorly than I would have liked (though evidently better than he expected). I shone in German, but on Saturday (my birthday) while speaking to my parents-in-law, I made a number of gender mistakes. I'm not sure if that was general exhaustion (10 hours of travel and a very important interview plus missed meals the day before) or a general issue, but I made a similar mistake in an email Monday. I've got to watch out for that.

I've also decided to use some of those Bible-reading plans for some of my languages - the Bible is super familiar to me, and while it's hard to track daily, the number of words works out to the entire Bible being about 3,000 pages and the New Testament being about 700 - so as long as I do plans that read the Bible, the OT, or the NT in their entirety, I can log it to know what I'm doing.

Here's the breakdown:

Spanish
ES Reading: 2114 / 10000 ES Film: 76 / 200
Spanish is doing pretty well, though I could wish for some more ability in spontaneous speaking. It's also a trial language for a pattern of Bible reading I'm doing - I've got a New Testament plan for 45 days and one for 90 days, so I'll do the first one twice while doing the second, and usually won't read anything double the same day. It's been OK keeping it up. I'm doing about an hour daily of listening as well. I've weaned off subtitles while watching entirely. I've got two novels started, and a couple of theology books...I also seem to have stumbled into a sort of group read of the Belgariad, which I've got in Spanish and French and Russian, so I'll do the first two and wish for the third...

French
FR Reading: 749 / 10000 FR Film: 51 / 200
I've been doing a lot of listening, and caught a quite funny film about a doctor from Zaire (what was the name of that again?). French will probably get the NT treatment that Spanish is getting next. I really lose a lot of understanding when watching something in French without French subtitles, so I need to work on that (it's odd, because my podcast understanding is way better, and when watching, I can at least see what's going on...you'd think it would be the other way around). I've got what, three novels started, and a book on Psalm 51 started...I can't finish things.

Swedish
SV Reading: 155 / 10000 SV Film: 29 / 200
Swedish is getting a whole-Bible worth of reading - I've got a 90-day plan, which I'm about five days behind on, because I read Swedish super slowly. However, I've not only noticed an improvement in the ease of reading it but also in my listening (I've got audio, so I L-R about 1/3 of it; I am reading faster than the audio) for other things. The only downside is that it's a straight-through run, so I'm Leviticus, which is dull, dull, dull. I think I missed a bunch of allusions back when I watched Gentlemen och Gangster - I'm pretty sure the mention of Roda Rummet isn't coincidence, but I need to finish the novel before I go back and watch it. I also have a good binge of PS to watch, if i can get around to it. So instead, I listen to podcasts about mammoths (when is it a mammoth and when is it an elephant? Djurfilosophie! :lol: )

Danish
DK Reading: 25 / 10000 DK Film: 5 / 200
Danish is kind of chilling at the moment. I'll probably read some Bible, and finish Heval at some point - Kierkegaard was just too hard, too many unknown words. I'll probably try doing some clozemaster when I get back into it. I have to re-establish a routine.

Catalan
CAT Reading: 0 / 10000 [progress=CAT Film ]4/200[/progres
I was going to have nothing to report for Catalan, but then I understood some "in the wild" - that is, a recording from Taizé that had some Catalan which I not only recognized but followed. The Sunday 1st Vespers (on Saturday) that gets recorded there is neat, there's usually five or six langauges represented, at least. I have like 600 sentences to review on clozemaster, and haven't gotten around to starting back up; I also need to begin with Assimil again (and watch some more Gran Nord, I kind of miss it). I forgot to set my podcasts for how many episodes to keep, so I've got an unreasonable number of hours of audio to listen to as well (yeah, I'm going to just delete some of it).

Scottish Gaelic
I listened to a Sunday service, and did some googling about Gaelic psalmody, but no substantive studying. I'll get back in the swing of things in a week or so.

Basque
Being one of the harder languages has a disproportionate effect - I didn't have anything I could easily do to work on Basque, so I did nothing.

Welsh
Not much, though a few encounters with word-of-the-day type stuff and stuff on social media has led me to believe I can puzzle a bit out (sometimes yes, sometimes no).

Latin
Took a massive back-seat. Hey, I can do what I need with it, so getting any better is just extra, right?

Ancient Greek
Basically nothing, which is OK. I know from June on I'll have a lot more work with it, so I'm OK with that. For both Latin and Ancient Greek - look, I passed the test that was basically B2 for the skillset that it was, and I'm better now than then, so it's not so bad.

Finnish
I study this? I think it's time to re-start Assimil.

Hebrew
Modern Hebrew: see Finnish, with less Assimil. Ancient Hebrew: Seek Ancient Greek, with less ability and more loss since the exam.

Arabic
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Korean
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:

Scots
Yeah nothing, but how hard is it to lose a language that's 90% transparent to my native langauge? I'll mess with it when I feel like it.

Russian
Here's where I really feel disappointed. I made good progress with Michel Thomas, for a while, but still have a couple of discs to go in the foundation course. I'd like to do both that course and the advanced, repeat what I've done in Assimil, and then move on from there. I'd love to jump into some of the materials I have - but even reading with Readlang means looking up almost every word. I've got to build some cheating before I consolidate, to take a phrase from emk (that I've seen around this forum recently as well). My loose plan is to get through MT and Assimil by August, and try to switch to extensive reading after that. Probably, I'll have a lot of gaps, but hey, I can always read the NT...

Dutch
I did some Dutch! Ok, it was talking on Facebook, but I didn't suck. I think.
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Brun Ugle
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Re: Systematiker's attempt at a log

Postby Brun Ugle » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:43 am

I've done 35 hours just of FSI so far this 6WC (i.e. so far in February) and over 100 hours total, and yet, when I read your log, I always end up feeling like a bit of a slacker.
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blaurebell
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Re: Systematiker's attempt at a log

Postby blaurebell » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:30 am

Systematiker wrote:I also seem to have stumbled into a sort of group read of the Belgariad, which I've got in Spanish and French and Russian, so I'll do the first two and wish for the third...

I'd love to jump into some of the materials I have - but even reading with Readlang means looking up almost every word. I've got to build some cheating before I consolidate, to take a phrase from emk (that I've seen around this forum recently as well). My loose plan is to get through MT and Assimil by August, and try to switch to extensive reading after that. Probably, I'll have a lot of gaps, but hey, I can always read the NT...


I'm reading the Belgariad in Russian and French combination myself, but only check the French when I get completely lost with the Russian. And that happens still every couple of pages. Some sentences in this one are just wild, reminds me of trying to figure out Latin back in high school! Also it's got a pretty tough beginning - lightens up a lot once the actual story starts. I'm building up my Russian LWT database and after prologue and 70% of Chapter 1 I still get about 50% new words on every page, so I'm still very much at the beginning. When I did the same with French my database was about 65-70% known words of all entries I added right at the beginning although I started with much less prior grammar and course study - all the cognates make such a difference! With Russian I'm scraping along at 50% or less, which feels super tough! I don't think this would improve with more Assimil and even less with doing MT, since it's the lack of cognates and the abundance of literary vocabulary + perfective / imperfective verbs that's the problem. And god, verbs are the most annoying thing! With all the Gerunds and perfective / imperfective I'm looking up about 3 - 6 verbs in almost every sentence, it's ridiculous! I think you will always start with looking up every second word with a language like Russian, whether you start now or after more courses. That said if after Russian you want to get into for example Polish, you're probably again at that more comfortable 65-70% ratio thanks to the vocabulary overlap with Russian.

My dad had the same experience with Russian by the way. He started reading after several years of grammar study in school and he had to look up every second word in a paper dictionary! We're so lucky to have readlang and LWT + http://cooljugator.com/ru/. However, he was just gazillion times more motivated to do this, because the books he wanted to read - SciFi mostly - were only available to him in Russian back then. It was either puzzling over it with a dictionary or not reading it at all. My dad went to do his PhD in Kiev in the end thanks to his obsession with SciFi, so that strategy actually works, even though it's super tedious in the beginning.

You mention emk's cheating and consolidating thread on the old forum and in that thread Expugnator was just starting into Russian reading after the beginner's Assimil. He seemed just as lost as we are now. I believe the language in actual use is just a lot more complex than what a beginner's course can teach without becoming overly long and complicated. There is just such a huge gap between that and actually figuring out literary language. That's why Russian has these strange intermediate course books that I haven't really seen in any of the Romance languages - courses supposed to bridge the gap between intermediate and advanced that get you started with reading and discussing politics, something like Intermediate+. I don't want to go through 100 days of Assimil + another course only to get to a point where I can possibly start with less of a "completely lost" feeling. I'd have to wait another half a year before getting to the fun part, no way! :roll: As for cheating, if you have the cases pretty much covered, perfective / imperfective distinction and gerunds then you should be good to go so that you rarely have to refer to grammar tables. Half of the Duolingo tree covers all that minus the gerunds at a quicker pace than Assimil. I powered through that in 4 weeks for revision and grammar-wise I'm sort of doing ok. Well, unless of course there are wild subordinate constructions mid sentence that aren't quite subclauses but don't quite seem to belong to the main clause either. Whew!

So, I guess I'll just continue looking up every second word until it gets easier ... :roll: At least the story is engaging enough to keep me going!
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galaxyrocker
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Re: Systematiker's attempt at a log

Postby galaxyrocker » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:42 pm

Systematiker wrote:Scottish Gaelic
I listened to a Sunday service, and did some googling about Gaelic psalmody, but no substantive studying. I'll get back in the swing of things in a week or so.


Do you have a place where you go to find these? I'd love to see if I could find some in Irish, as I went to Mass, despite not being Catholic myself, while I was in the Gaeltacht to practice, and it was nice hearing it. and it could be very useful practice (it doesn't have to be Mass, in particular). I'm now also curious how much of the Gaelic one I'd be able to understand...
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Systematiker
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Languages: ENG (N); DEU (C2+) // SWG (~C1); BAR (~C1); SPA (4/3); FRA (~C1); SCO (~C1); NLD (~B2*); LAT (Latinum Bavaricum); GRC (Graecum Bavaricum); CAT (~B2*); POR (~B2*); SWE (~B2*); HBO (Hebraicum); DAN (~B1*); RUS (~A2); KOR (~A1); FAS (still a raw beginner)
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7332
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Re: Systematiker's attempt at a log

Postby Systematiker » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:45 pm

Brun Ugle wrote:I've done 35 hours just of FSI so far this 6WC (i.e. so far in February) and over 100 hours total, and yet, when I read your log, I always end up feeling like a bit of a slacker.


You shouldn't! the TL;DR version of my update is "I farted around and didn't really do anything that took any effort, spending almost two weeks coasting on the strength of effort I put in years ago; I could have done way better" :D :D
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Systematiker
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Languages: ENG (N); DEU (C2+) // SWG (~C1); BAR (~C1); SPA (4/3); FRA (~C1); SCO (~C1); NLD (~B2*); LAT (Latinum Bavaricum); GRC (Graecum Bavaricum); CAT (~B2*); POR (~B2*); SWE (~B2*); HBO (Hebraicum); DAN (~B1*); RUS (~A2); KOR (~A1); FAS (still a raw beginner)
*Averaged for high receptive skill
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7332
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Re: Systematiker's attempt at a log

Postby Systematiker » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:52 pm

blaurebell wrote:
You mention emk's cheating and consolidating thread on the old forum and in that thread Expugnator was just starting into Russian reading after the beginner's Assimil. He seemed just as lost as we are now. I believe the language in actual use is just a lot more complex than what a beginner's course can teach without becoming overly long and complicated. There is just such a huge gap between that and actually figuring out literary language. That's why Russian has these strange intermediate course books that I haven't really seen in any of the Romance languages - courses supposed to bridge the gap between intermediate and advanced that get you started with reading and discussing politics, something like Intermediate+. I don't want to go through 100 days of Assimil + another course only to get to a point where I can possibly start with less of a "completely lost" feeling. I'd have to wait another half a year before getting to the fun part, no way! :roll: As for cheating, if you have the cases pretty much covered, perfective / imperfective distinction and gerunds then you should be good to go so that you rarely have to refer to grammar tables. Half of the Duolingo tree covers all that minus the gerunds at a quicker pace than Assimil. I powered through that in 4 weeks for revision and grammar-wise I'm sort of doing ok. Well, unless of course there are wild subordinate constructions mid sentence that aren't quite subclauses but don't quite seem to belong to the main clause either. Whew!

So, I guess I'll just continue looking up every second word until it gets easier ... :roll: At least the story is engaging enough to keep me going!



Yeah, I remember when they did the Assimil experiment. Expug's experience is why when Assimil started being less-than-transparent (right around the 15% mark!), I went back to work on some stuff before getting into it again. I pretty much don't have those cases covered, though. Honestly, I'll probably start reading before I finish Assimil, but I need more than I've got now. I also probably won't start with the Belgariad; I had a really encouraging experience on Facebook yesterday, managing to decipher a comment chain in Russian without using the translation or a dictionary, and contributing to the conversation (though not in Russian, haha), so I'll probably start with somthing even more familiar to me (it was a discussion on a Bible passage).
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Systematiker
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Languages: ENG (N); DEU (C2+) // SWG (~C1); BAR (~C1); SPA (4/3); FRA (~C1); SCO (~C1); NLD (~B2*); LAT (Latinum Bavaricum); GRC (Graecum Bavaricum); CAT (~B2*); POR (~B2*); SWE (~B2*); HBO (Hebraicum); DAN (~B1*); RUS (~A2); KOR (~A1); FAS (still a raw beginner)
*Averaged for high receptive skill
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7332
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Re: Systematiker's attempt at a log

Postby Systematiker » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:57 pm

galaxyrocker wrote:
Systematiker wrote:Scottish Gaelic
I listened to a Sunday service, and did some googling about Gaelic psalmody, but no substantive studying. I'll get back in the swing of things in a week or so.


Do you have a place where you go to find these? I'd love to see if I could find some in Irish, as I went to Mass, despite not being Catholic myself, while I was in the Gaeltacht to practice, and it was nice hearing it. and it could be very useful practice (it doesn't have to be Mass, in particular). I'm now also curious how much of the Gaelic one I'd be able to understand...


Probably not much help, since I just use Dèanamaid Adhradh from http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08922hm which is the old-style precenting plus explanation. That means that I can't leverage my familiarity with the liturgy like I can in a lot of other languages. I do wish I could find a RC Mass, because I'd be able to get a lot out of it (and let's face it, I have to listen to a lot of Roman stuff, we Lutherans aren't as numerous). That's why I've been casually looking for an audio version of the Bible as well, but without luck so far.

But in other news, I did have a (very) short conversation in Gaelic yesterday, and managed to trot out all those beginner phrases before running out of ability (my interlocutor wasn't a fluent speaker either, though a native).
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Systematiker
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Languages: ENG (N); DEU (C2+) // SWG (~C1); BAR (~C1); SPA (4/3); FRA (~C1); SCO (~C1); NLD (~B2*); LAT (Latinum Bavaricum); GRC (Graecum Bavaricum); CAT (~B2*); POR (~B2*); SWE (~B2*); HBO (Hebraicum); DAN (~B1*); RUS (~A2); KOR (~A1); FAS (still a raw beginner)
*Averaged for high receptive skill
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7332
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Re: Systematiker's attempt at a log

Postby Systematiker » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:22 pm

Systematiker wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote:
Systematiker wrote:Scottish Gaelic
I listened to a Sunday service, and did some googling about Gaelic psalmody, but no substantive studying. I'll get back in the swing of things in a week or so.


Do you have a place where you go to find these? I'd love to see if I could find some in Irish, as I went to Mass, despite not being Catholic myself, while I was in the Gaeltacht to practice, and it was nice hearing it. and it could be very useful practice (it doesn't have to be Mass, in particular). I'm now also curious how much of the Gaelic one I'd be able to understand...


Probably not much help, since I just use Dèanamaid Adhradh from http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08922hm which is the old-style precenting plus explanation. That means that I can't leverage my familiarity with the liturgy like I can in a lot of other languages. I do wish I could find a RC Mass, because I'd be able to get a lot out of it (and let's face it, I have to listen to a lot of Roman stuff, we Lutherans aren't as numerous). That's why I've been casually looking for an audio version of the Bible as well, but without luck so far.

But in other news, I did have a (very) short conversation in Gaelic yesterday, and managed to trot out all those beginner phrases before running out of ability (my interlocutor wasn't a fluent speaker either, though a native).


Further to the services, I tried "Aifreann" on Google video search and YouTube and had some luck, looks like a couple at least with significant parts of the liturgy. It looks like it's the same word in Gaeilge as in Gàidhlig, though.
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Systematiker
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Languages: ENG (N); DEU (C2+) // SWG (~C1); BAR (~C1); SPA (4/3); FRA (~C1); SCO (~C1); NLD (~B2*); LAT (Latinum Bavaricum); GRC (Graecum Bavaricum); CAT (~B2*); POR (~B2*); SWE (~B2*); HBO (Hebraicum); DAN (~B1*); RUS (~A2); KOR (~A1); FAS (still a raw beginner)
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7332
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Re: Systematiker's attempt at a log

Postby Systematiker » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:48 pm

As a brief update: I'm plugging right along, having gotten back into the swing of things with everything except Korean, Finnish, and Arabic. I'm still not quite in the pattern I was, but I'm getting a good amount done, and seeing good gains in comprehension in a few things. In Swedish, Alex & Sigge are much easier to follow now;* in Catalan, I'm getting about where I was last summer in Spanish (which means its really time to start reading and watching more). In Welsh, surprisingly, I'm actually beginning to pick up words and phrases when I hear it or look at news articles (but not even at a "gist" level yet) and in Gàidhlig I'm getting about the same. The mutations in the latter two are going to kill me in production, though, I can tell. I even understood some Basque (a couple of words).

Mostly, I'm valiantly trying to resist the lure of yet another language. See, it's hard, because I've got langauges that are super-transparent for me, and langauges that take lots and lots of work. The only things in between are Welsh and Gaelic, but I have to keep a balance on how much effort I put in, or I will neglect something else important (they could both become like a "hard" langauge for me if I start setting time goals and pushing instead of just taking it easy. And they, like my "hard" languages, have super-low utility for me, it's pure interest that I'm doing them for). Sounds like I should be able to resist temptation - but then I see or hear something in Portuguese or Italian, and start the following mental dialog:

:evil: "You should start that, you already understand a lot."
:? "But it would take time away from something else."
:evil: "So? A TV show or two a week and starting a novel won't hurt, you bounce around enough as it is."
:? "But I don't wanna end up speaking Portuñol or Itañol"
:evil: "But that didn't happen with Catalan, and it was way closer. In fact, you didn't even worry about it."
:? "But that was to ladder Spanish."
:evil: "And now? You love Catalan. Besides, you have the Spanish-vector Assimil for Portuguese and the French-vector one for Italian."
:? "[Wife] and I are supposed to start learning Italian together again, when we both have time. I can't start Italian."
:evil: "So start Portuguese. Hey look, cool media!"
:? "I already can't keep up with Arabic and Korean and Finnish, or Modern Hebrew, or..."
:evil: "No, you're lazy and go on the forum or watch Spanish and French TV instead. You could do that with Portuguese in like, a month. Look at this cool media!"
:? "I'd have to give up another langauge. I can't do that many."
:evil: "What are you going to have more fun with? You're not even learning the dialect of Arabic that interests you, you're learning what was available. And almost every day you have time, but only 'hard' languages that you don't feel like doing. Portuguese would be a nice filler for that slot, it wouldn't be stressful...hey look, cool media!"
:? "OK, seriously, I'd have to drop one of the tougher languages, and I'd forget everything I've already learned."
:evil: "And how long has it been since you've done something in, say, Arabic? Try Arabic again when you have time to work on it. Replace it! Oh, and look, cool media!"


So yeah, if I come back in a week or so and I've started working on Portuguese, you know who to blame...


Edit: * from above: This actually makes a lot of sense. I just saw elsewhere that Cavesa ballparked a few reading numbers, a few hundred pages for noticable progress and between 10k and 15k pages for equal ease with a native langauge. Well, I'll second the first part of that at least, since I've just recently got through the Torah (first five books of the Bible) in Swedish, which is a bit more than 300 pages, and am seeing across-the-board improvement.
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