My journey to Spanish fluency

[westminstress]

Hi all. I've been trying to learn Spanish forever it seems. I'm a legal services lawyer in NYC, and I'd like to be able to use Spanish professionally. This requires a very high degree of fluency (basically, native level fluency). Around five or six years ago I put in a super-human effort with FSI/Platiquemos and learned a lot of Spanish. But my studies stalled out, and then I had kids, stopped studying and forgot everything. About 4-5 months ago I decided to pick Spanish up again. I did the Duolingo course and a lot of Spanish came flooding back pretty quickly. I am back up to an intermediate level again, just trying to find new ways to learn more. I'm hoping that keeping this log will help me get over the hump.

Right now, my Spanish studying routine looks a little something like this:

Reading a little bit every day - usually for a few minutes before I go to sleep and sometimes for longer while on the train. Right now I'm reading de amor y de sombra by Isabel Allende, which is wonderful. I can read native texts pretty easily, sometimes I stop to look up unknown words but a lot of times I don't bother.

Listening practice - I try to do a lot of this. My main sources of input right now are the Buenos Días America podcast, Radio Ambulante podcasts, and two novelas: La Reina del Sur (which I like a lot but don't have time to watch very often) and Muñeca Brava which I watch on Yabla. My main study time is while commuting so I really prize materials that don't require an internet connection. These materials really vary in difficulty - the newscast is pretty easy for me to understand and Muñeca Brava is quite difficult because some of the characters speak very quickly and use a lot of slang. The other two resources are in the middle - I can understand most of what they are saying without translation but need to use the spanish subtitles/transcripts for full comprehension. I also listen to Spanish music, for example when washing up after dinner, but I'm not sure if this is actually helpful, though it is enjoyable. I find that I can listen to the same song a hundred times without ever being able to understand it any better than I could the first time through.

Grammar/word study - this is a new element in my routine, and I'm not sure yet whether it will pay off. I am doing a couple of things here - one is working my way through Gramática de Uso del Español (B1/B2) and the other is Memrise practice - some verb conjugations and some vocabulary - like selected words I run into where I want to remember what they mean. The reason I wanted to do this is I felt I needed to solidify some grammar concepts in order to feel more comfortable speaking. And I wanted to see if I could move some words from passive to active vocabulary. My passive vocabulary is huge but active is painfully small (at least it feels that way to me). However, I'm not sure that Memrise is worth the time. I don't spend much time on Memrise but I wonder if even that little bit of time I do spend on it would be best used for other things, like just reading my book or some other more natural interaction with the language.

It's clear to me from writing this that what's missing in my routine is output. I have tried posting to Lang-8 once or twice but I didn't enjoy it. And, the type of output I really need to practice is speaking. Right now I don't practice speaking at all, and I am starting to think that it is holding me back even from improving my listening comprehension. This is the same problem I had last time, I got to the point where I really needed to practice speaking, but I didn't have anyone to practice with. Hmmm, food for thought.

[iguanamon]

...It's clear to me from writing this that what's missing in my routine is output. I have tried posting to Lang-8 once or twice but I didn't enjoy it. And, the type of output I really need to practice is speaking. Right now I don't practice speaking at all, and I am starting to think that it is holding me back even from improving my listening comprehension. This is the same problem I had last time, I got to the point where I really needed to practice speaking, but I didn't have anyone to practice with. ...

If you can make time to do it, you can hire a private tutor for conversation via skype from Guatemala for $10US/hour: plqe.org and nulengua.com. Even one session per week (maybe on Saturday mornings) would do wonders for your Spanish. Just explain that you are looking for conversation and correction.

Also, I would recommend that you go to VeinteMundos. This is an online Spanish-learning magazine, with downloadable pdf's and audio in mp3. It is in intermediate and advanced levels and has a variety of interesting stories from all over the Spanish-speaking world. They should be relatively easy for you to understand and put on your phone for the commute.

Too bad you don't like lang8. I think many people fall into "drive-by" posting on the site. The more you get involved by correcting Spanish-speakers' English (in the same manner that you would appreciate receiving- by explaining corrections in a detailed and constructively encouraging manner)you can build relationships with other serious learners and your efforts will be reciprocated. It can even lead to online language exchanges.

Looking forward to following your log, ¡Suerte!

[James29]

Hi. I cannot help but notice the similarity in the resources that we have used and/or are using. I am a bit stumped that your reading skills seem so solid while you feel your output is weak. I am willing to bet either you are underestimating your output skills or your output skills could very quickly get up to par.

For what it is worth, I found the B level grammar book you are using quite a bit of help for "activating" the language. Next to FSI I felt that was the best thing for "activating" my Spanish.

The other thing I'd note is that using Spanish at work gets a heck of a lot easier after you have done it a bit. So many of the conversations are similar to previous ones you have had, etc. I have also found that the vocabulary I have needed for my work seem to be MUCH more "sticky" and once I learn them they are there forever.

Anyway, good luck. I'll be a reader of your journey to Spanish fluency. The people here are all very helpful. Don't hesitate to ask anyone for advice and/or suggestions.

[westminstress]

Hi James and Iguanamon, thanks so much for your responses and especially for the links to the $10 online lessons. Saturday mornings would be completely impossible for me, but I may be able to take some time at work for a lesson. I think what I am going to do for now is try to focus on moving through the grammar book quickly, which I think will be good preparation for the lessons. There are a lot of helpful points in there - some major concepts that are inherently difficult for English-speakers but also nagging little points of confusion - the difference between "el peor" and "lo peor," for example, is something I always wondered about. Mystery solved. James - it was reading your language log that convinced me to give this grammar book a try!

You are probably right that my output is better than I think it is. I can actually write pretty well (at least I think I can) but it takes me a long time because I have to stop and look up words and think about which grammatical structure to use, etc. This is a problem that I have in speech too which drives me crazy. I know I need to practice in order to get over it.

A more fundamental issue is the way I want to use Spanish. I actually have a pretty decent legal vocabulary but I still have problems understanding what my clients are saying to me. I can usually understand if they are telling me something along the lines of what I expect to hear. But if they are telling me something unpredictable, which happens a lot, it's much harder for me to follow the thread. Clients themselves are often confused about what is happening to them and their stories may not make sense for reasons unrelated to the language barrier. But having the language barrier makes everything harder to sort out. And clients sometimes have difficult accents etc. -- often when working with a translator I can understand everything the translator is saying, but that doesn't mean I can understand everything that my client is saying. Kind of like when you listen to the news and you can understand the reporter but not the eye-witness who gets interviewed. You are farther along in your studies than me so you probably don't have this problem anymore, but I still do from time to time.

[sfuqua]

I think that there is nothing that beats actually talking to people. I find most of the oral based courses to be too easy and sort of boring, I can read novels without a dictionary, and my listening comprehension is about at your level, and yet I don't feel that I talk very well. I know what you mean. I suspect that it is mostly a confidence thing. To get good at talking you need to find a place where you can practice actual talking without feeling worried if you bomb. I think that you need to fool around in Spanish, making mistakes, for a while, until you learn what you can and can't do. A serious legal discussion (or in my case a discussion with an angry parent of one of my students) is not a good place to have ones Spanish bomb out. I found lang-8 to be useful, and was amazed at how fast some of my errors disappeared. I think the same thing would happen with speaking.

Hey, if I sound like I'm giving a lot of advice, it's because I think it's what is wrong with my own Spanish.
I need to take my own advice. I think the tutor is an absolutely great idea.

[James29]

A more fundamental issue is the way I want to use Spanish. I actually have a pretty decent legal vocabulary but I still have problems understanding what my clients are saying to me. I can usually understand if they are telling me something along the lines of what I expect to hear. But if they are telling me something unpredictable, which happens a lot, it's much harder for me to follow the thread. Clients themselves are often confused about what is happening to them and their stories may not make sense for reasons unrelated to the language barrier. But having the language barrier makes everything harder to sort out. And clients sometimes have difficult accents etc. -- often when working with a translator I can understand everything the translator is saying, but that doesn't mean I can understand everything that my client is saying. Kind of like when you listen to the news and you can understand the reporter but not the eye-witness who gets interviewed. You are farther along in your studies than me so you probably don't have this problem anymore, but I still do from time to time.

I totally understand and can relate to this. This is exactly what I struggle with. My Spanish is great with my Latino friends and if I am reading a book or watching a telenovela, etc. But, when there is an excited/angry/confused/scared client involved it just throws a wrench into it. It is even worse if they are uneducated and use a lot of slang. I found a system that works fairly well. I just listen and let them talk. I try to pick up as much as I can and I don't worry if I feel like I am missing things. Then, after a few minutes, I loop back and just repeat with them in Spanish what happened/what I understood and get them to confirm or re-explain. It works great. I have found that I actually understand more than I thought I was understanding.

Plus, try to have "command" of the conversation. You are in charge of the conversation and your clients are coming to you as the expert. They really won't mind at all if you miss some of the nuances of their language. If you project a sense of confidence in the conversation because your knowledge is the answer to their problem the conversations seem to go much better. I used to feel like my Spanish was being judged when I spoke Spanish with clients and it made me lack confidence. Now I approach the conversations exactly as I do with English speakers (with much more confidence and command) and it really makes a huge difference.

[westminstress]

Thanks for the comments above. I think you are right that having more confidence in speaking (or projecting more confidence in speaking than you really have) is very important. You've made me think that I really need to find some way to practice speaking sooner rather than later. This is challenging because it means finding some time in my very tight schedule. Anyway, here's what I did this week:

Reading -- I finished up De amor y de sombra and moved on to Pedro Paramo by Juan Rulfo. A great book I read (in Spanish) about 10 years ago and really wanted to read again. I haven't got too far with it yet -- I've only read five pages so far. It's always harder in the beginning to adjust to the voice of a new author. I've had to stop and look up words, etc. and actually haven't picked it up in a few days. I'm sure it will get easier though as I go on.

Listening -- I continued with all my same resources - I listened to Buenos Días America most days, plus I watched two episodes of La Reina del Sur and two of Muñeca Brava (via Yabla). Muñeca Brava continues to be pretty challenging and I need to use the English subtitles at times to decipher all the slang. When watching La Reina del Sur I usually try to understand all the words but with Muñeca Brava that's just not possible and I'm going to stop trying. I like the show though. I also listened to some Spanish music here and there.

Grammar/word study -- I only managed to complete a couple chapters of the grammar book last week. My goal is a chapter a day (weekdays only) but I'm not reaching that. I also haven't been reviewing the previous chapters at all. I just don't have the mental energy for it. Does it even make sense to do it at all under these conditions? I don't know. I've kept up with Memrise but am trying to minimize the time I spend with it. The verb conjugations are getting very tiresome and there are so many verbs in each course. I think I am going to focus on a few common irregular verbs that I'd like to make more automatic (I'm looking at you, dar, decir, tener, ser y estar) and then give the conjugations a rest for a while. I have brushed up on all the regular forms now which was helpful.

Output -- I drafted a post for the Spanish forum, and that was about it. Also, inspired by Hank, I signed up for HelloTalk. I text chatted with a couple of people but didn't really have time to voice talk, and then I started to receive lots of requests from men and none from women. This made me a bit uncomfortable so I turned on the feature that makes my profile only visible to people of the same gender and since then I have not received any requests. I think that this could be a good tool, and I like that it's free. But it's going to take me a little time to figure out how to make it work for me.

[westminstress]

Hi everyone, here's a recap of what I did last week.

Listening - Something very exciting happened this week! I seemed to have one of those glorious jumps in comprehension that happens without warning. I was watching Muñeca Brava on Yabla and noticed that it was starting to get a little easier to understand. It seemed that if I just watched the clip twice without subtitles, I could understand most of the dialogue, which was a huge improvement. I thought I was just finally getting used to the particular voices on the show, but then when I went to watch La Reina del Sur, I found that I could understand most of it easily without using the subtitles. It was like the dialogue was just flowing into my head and I understood it! This didn't last for the entire episode, there were still a few parts where I needed to turn on the subtitles. But I was pretty heartened by this, and decided not to worry about whether or not to use subtitles anymore -- I am now feeling like the subtitles are definitely a helpful support as opposed to an inhibiting crutch - and when I don't need them anymore, I will know it. In addition to watching one episode each of these shows, I listened to Buenos Días America most mornings, and I also listened to music in Spanish. I did a lot of listening this week because I was very excited about my progress and not very interested in reading my book (see below).

Reading - I had to give up on Pedro Paramo. I had to read it pretty intensively in order to understand it, and I just don't have the mental energy for that right now. It's funny, I last read it in Spanish, and enjoyed it very much, when I spoke much less Spanish than I do know. Reading intensively wasn't an issue because I had to read everything intensively! And it was before I had kids, so I had more mental energy for serious literature. I picked up Hija de la Fortuna, another Allende book, and as with the last Allende book I read, I found that I can read it fluidly and the characters and plot are engaging. Even though there are also unknown words in this book, there are fewer of them and I can usually figure out the meaning by context. (This was impossible with Pedro Paramo. Unknown words were often unguessable, so I always had to stop to look words up in the dictionary, or else be confused as to what was happening and would have to reread the same passage multiple times in order to understand it). I think I will just stick with Allende for a while as she seems to be perfect for me right now.

Grammar/Word Study - I've been dialing back on this, and it feels good. I did Chapters 10-12 of the grammar book. I'm not doing a chapter a day, but I'm ok with that. A few chapters a week should be fine. I'm still doing Memrise for verb conjugations and vocabulary, but much less of it. I have found that when I learn a word on Memrise, even though I can recognize it on Memrise, when I encounter it in real life I don't always recognize it. For example, I learned the word "destacar" - to emphasize - for the first time on Memrise. Then later on I heard the word on the morning newscast. But when I heard it, I couldn't recall the meaning. I had to stop and look it up in the dictionary, and then I realized that this was a word that I supposedly knew according to Memrise. I've since heard that word on the newscast a few more times, it always would catch my attention while my brain tried to retrieve the meaning. This morning finally I heard it again and understood it pretty quickly. Hopefully, the next time I hear it, I will just know the word and won't be translating in my head anymore. So I've learned that having multiple real life contexts is very important for me to absorb new vocabulary. On the other hand, Memrise is helpful for storing words that I do want to study and remember, so that I can move the process along. Otherwise I probably could have heard "destacar" in the newscast fifty times without ever learning its meaning. All of which is to say, a little Memrise seems to be helpful for flagging and tracking new words, but just a little.

Output - Not much to report here in terms of things I actually did, but I have laid some groundwork that I hope will soon start to pay off. One is that I reached out to language school in Guatemala and have arranged to start weekly online lessons. My first one is next week! Second, after completely giving up on Hello Talk as being basically a dating site and not actually for language exchange, I received a message from a woman in Spain--another mom around my age--who has high potential to become a great language exchange partner for me. I've also text-chatted with a young man from Colombia (via Hello Talk) who goes to school near my office, so I am thinking that there is potential to have an in-person language exchange with him, though I'm also wary since I don't know anything about him. He seems nice enough but you never know. Anyway, thanks to folks on this forum for inspiring me to get talking. It's really hard for me to do, but I know I need to do it, and I probably wouldn't have taken these steps if not for your suggestions and support.

[westminstress]

I had a really crazy work week last week, which didn't leave much time for Spanish. I was able to read some of my book (Hija de la fortuna), listen to a few news episodes, watch a few clips on Yabla. I've also been working with the most recent Radio Ambulante episode. I noticed that when my mind was full of lots of work-related stress it was harder to concentrate on Spanish and my comprehension suffered all around. I assume it will pick back up again when things go back to normal at work. Here's hoping for a better week this week!

[James29]

Output - Not much to report here in terms of things I actually did, but I have laid some groundwork that I hope will soon start to pay off. One is that I reached out to language school in Guatemala and have arranged to start weekly online lessons. My first one is next week! Second, after completely giving up on Hello Talk as being basically a dating site and not actually for language exchange, I received a message from a woman in Spain--another mom around my age--who has high potential to become a great language exchange partner for me. I've also text-chatted with a young man from Colombia (via Hello Talk) who goes to school near my office, so I am thinking that there is potential to have an in-person language exchange with him, though I'm also wary since I don't know anything about him. He seems nice enough but you never know.

I have often thought of doing online lessons like the ones you are doing with a tutor in Guatemala. I've never really done any formal tutoring and think it could be really helpful. Please keep commenting on it and if you could post a link to the service you are using that would be great.

On the language exchange stuff... I am often wary about people (in fact, I usually start off quite skeptical), but soon learned that it is VERY easy to determine if someone is a legitimate/interested language exchange partner. If you have two or three skype talks with the guy you should be able to tell quite easily if he would be nice to have an in-person meeting with. I'd definitely recommend talking on skype with him before you meet in person.