Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, German, Japanese, bits of French)

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby garyb » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:23 am

It's a busy time of year so I'm not getting loads done. But I'm continuing with La casa de los espíritus. I've finished the first chapter and Spoonary was right: it gets easier after these first few dozen pages! Relatively speaking of course -- most pages still have a good few unknown words -- but with the popup dictionary it doesn't feel like too much of a struggle and I'm beginning to get into the story.

Last week I caught up with an Italian friend whom I hadn't seen since before my trip, and on the way home I was walking past the bar where the Spanish meetup was taking place so I popped my head in for half an hour. I'm not sure it was the best idea: my brain was very much in Italian mode and moving to Spanish was tough, plus this time it was a small group of beginner and intermediate learners.

I know that a couple of weeks ago I was saying that advanced Spanish learners are much more common than French ones, but that doesn't mean they're all advanced; just like for French there are plenty of eternal-intermediates, many of whom have studied the language at university level and/or spent long periods in Spain or Latin America. I don't want to criticise, especially as their level is higher than my current low-intermediate one, but at the same time it's underwhelming given the amount of time and background. It's just a note that the grass isn't always greener on the other side and Spanish meetups too can be hit-or-miss. Although at the moment I can't complain: meeting people who've spent time in places I'm considering travelling to is very interesting and productive in itself!

For now I'm just getting excited about finishing work and all the study I'll be able to do once I have that extra free time! I don't plan on taking on many new projects (although I'll admit that taking up some form of Latin dancing is very tempting, and it has obvious overlap with interest in Spanish-speaking cultures and it could be a good social thing while travelling), but I hope to put more time into my current linguistic and musical ones and do them in a more relaxed and less rushed manner. I'd like to up my speaking practice a bit; tutors are always an option but since I'll have more free time and less income it could be worth pursuing language exchanges, especially for Spanish. Doing Skype lessons seems a bit silly at this stage when I just need conversation practice and I'm in a city full of Spaniards who would love to speak with a local. Anyway I still have another month before I finish, so I need to contain myself and take it one step at a time.

I've been reading the book Refuse to choose that was mentioned in the Several Projects vs. Perfectionism thread and it's good stuff: it's giving me some ideas about how I might want to organise my life and career around all my different interests, and just telling me that it's okay to have diverse interests rather than be a specialist. I've also lined up a few books about alternative ways of working (freelancing, working while travelling, etc.), some in other languages.
4 x

garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby garyb » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:19 pm

I had another fairly disappointing Spanish meetup. I suppose I just got lucky that first time, and like other language meetups it's indeed more often a miss than a hit. Bad ratio of English speakers to Spanish speakers, resulting in the usual situation where everyone was desperate for a chance to speak with the native speaker and it was hard to join in the conversation and get their attention for any length of time. I'm less shy than I used to be, and I was making a good effort to join in, but after constantly being ignored I just got up and left. No point in wasting my time.

Not that the conversation was even very interesting in itself: it was mostly discussion of the languages rather than discussion in the languages. I only went because on the Meetup page it looked like a big group of Spaniards would be going, but most of them didn't turn up, so it was mostly beginners and regulars (i.e., the eternal-intermediates who go every week yet never improve). Lastly, speaking a language that I don't speak very well just isn't much fun, now that I've gotten over the initial novelty of "wow, I can get by in a conversation, I'm not as bad as I thought!". That's great, but I'm still far from being able to express myself comfortably and keep up with groups, and it's just frustrating.

The main thing holding me back was lack of knowledge rather than lack of practice, and I've gotten past the belief that the only way to get better at speaking is to speak more; I do think it's necessary at a more advanced level, and a conversation now and again is great for identifying gaps and weak points, but where I am now I'll get more out of studying and listening. When I do practise speaking, one-on-one conversations would be much more helpful than meetups where I mostly hear English or bad Spanish and struggle to get a word in with a native speaker. It's the same conclusion I came to for French meetups in the past, but this time it took me a few weeks rather than a few years to realise it! There is a "natives and advanced speakers only" meetup that I might check out once I'm up to that level, and in the mean time I might go back to this one occasionally if I feel like it since it can sometimes be good, but it won't be a regular thing.

In Italian news, I found a new Skype partner who is a keen musician and metal fan, so it's nice to have someone to talk about music with. Hopefully we'll continue, at least once I have more time on my hands.
5 x

DaveBee
Blue Belt
Posts: 952
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:49 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (native). French (studying).
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7466
x 1386

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby DaveBee » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:22 pm

garyb wrote:In Italian news, I found a new Skype partner who is a keen musician and metal fan, so it's nice to have someone to talk about music with. Hopefully we'll continue, at least once I have more time on my hands.
Do you shout at one another, or sign?
0 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby Cavesa » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:02 pm

garyb wrote:The main thing holding me back was lack of knowledge rather than lack of practice, and I've gotten past the belief that the only way to get better at speaking is to speak more; I do think it's necessary at a more advanced level, and a conversation now and again is great for identifying gaps and weak points, but where I am now I'll get more out of studying and listening.

So true! It is such a relief to read the same thoughts from someone else. I am tired of reading "just speak more" everywhere, from discussions about Duolingo level up to response to my questions about something different :-D Thanks!

About Latin dancing: Knowing Spanish is sometimes a disadvantage. One of my salsa teachers had a favourite song to use with us several times per lesson: Feliz Navidad. Of course it wasn't Navidad the whole year, I was suffering from the song. But the names of the dancing figures are amusing :-)
1 x

garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby garyb » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:11 pm

DaveBee wrote:
garyb wrote:In Italian news, I found a new Skype partner who is a keen musician and metal fan, so it's nice to have someone to talk about music with. Hopefully we'll continue, at least once I have more time on my hands.
Do you shout at one another, or sign?

Depends on which metal sub-genre we're discussing ;) This partner is a very experienced singer though, and since I'm learning I've been asking for advice!

Cavesa wrote:So true! It is such a relief to read the same thoughts from someone else. I am tired of reading "just speak more" everywhere, from discussions about Duolingo level up to response to my questions about something different :-D Thanks!

I think the "just listen and read more!" responses are equally bad, but at least they're mostly limited to forums like this, while "just speak more" is a far more mainstream and ubiquitous idea. Both are important, can we not just find a balance? I do think, and have said before, that focusing too much on speaking too early on just made my life more difficult than necessary with my other languages. All that wasted time and stress with meetups like those I've described and unreliable exchange partners. I'm not sure what the balance is, and I believe it depends on the person, but my current thought is that the idea of needing to speak more to speak better is accurate for advanced learners but less so at lower levels. Not to mention quality over quantity: speaking with one native speaker is quite different from speaking with a group of beginners, but in my past misguided days my logic was "any is better than nothing".

Cavesa wrote:About Latin dancing: Knowing Spanish is sometimes a disadvantage. One of my salsa teachers had a favourite song to use with us several times per lesson: Feliz Navidad. Of course it wasn't Navidad the whole year, I was suffering from the song. But the names of the dancing figures are amusing :-)

Sounds painful... Here there's a Latin nightclub that I occasionally end up in, and even if it's not my kind of place I do enjoy the opportunity to hear some music in Spanish. But at times it feels like I'd be happier not understanding it.
1 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby Cavesa » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:59 pm

garyb wrote:I think the "just listen and read more!" responses are equally bad, but at least they're mostly limited to forums like this, while "just speak more" is a far more mainstream and ubiquitous idea. Both are important, can we not just find a balance? I do think, and have said before, that focusing too much on speaking too early on just made my life more difficult than necessary with my other languages. All that wasted time and stress with meetups like those I've described and unreliable exchange partners. I'm not sure what the balance is, and I believe it depends on the person, but my current thought is that the idea of needing to speak more to speak better is accurate for advanced learners but less so at lower levels. Not to mention quality over quantity: speaking with one native speaker is quite different from speaking with a group of beginners, but in my past misguided days my logic was "any is better than nothing".


Yes, a balance is certainly necessary and always a tricky thing to look for. It is, however, interesting noone is saing "just study more" :-D
I don't think it is that awesome for Advanced learners either. I believe Intermediates are those, who profit from large quantity of speaking the most.

Right now, I am speaking a lot almost every day (today I pretend not to exist, I am happily drinking coffee and goldlisting) and I haven't improved much in two months. Sure, I might improve a bit in the six months I'll have stayed in total, and I would certainly improve in five years. At my level, the progress is simply slow. And it is not that easy to recognize mistakes and get feedback, contrary to popular belief. Ok, I was corrected just yesterday that it is "fourmillement", not "fourmissement" :-D

But I have already made a few adjustments on my own to improve the quality of my speaking. Grammar reviewing, for example. Reading textbooks in the language, especially semiology. Making notes of what doctors say and what they write. The French doctor writing style is something different from normal French and from Czech doctor style too. All these have had some impact (but not that huge as I am progressing slowly, which I have already said) and required other things than simply speaking more.

Intermediates can trully benefit from a large quantity of production. Their main struggles tend to be the flow, thinking faster on their feet, leaving the comfort zone. All these can be improved by quantity of speaking even if you get zero feedback.
0 x

DaveBee
Blue Belt
Posts: 952
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:49 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (native). French (studying).
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7466
x 1386

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby DaveBee » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:20 pm

Cavesa wrote:
garyb wrote:I think the "just listen and read more!" responses are equally bad, but at least they're mostly limited to forums like this, while "just speak more" is a far more mainstream and ubiquitous idea. Both are important, can we not just find a balance? I do think, and have said before, that focusing too much on speaking too early on just made my life more difficult than necessary with my other languages. All that wasted time and stress with meetups like those I've described and unreliable exchange partners. I'm not sure what the balance is, and I believe it depends on the person, but my current thought is that the idea of needing to speak more to speak better is accurate for advanced learners but less so at lower levels. Not to mention quality over quantity: speaking with one native speaker is quite different from speaking with a group of beginners, but in my past misguided days my logic was "any is better than nothing".


Yes, a balance is certainly necessary and always a tricky thing to look for. It is, however, interesting noone is saing "just study more" :-D
I don't think it is that awesome for Advanced learners either. I believe Intermediates are those, who profit from large quantity of speaking the most.

Right now, I am speaking a lot almost every day (today I pretend not to exist, I am happily drinking coffee and goldlisting) and I haven't improved much in two months. Sure, I might improve a bit in the six months I'll have stayed in total, and I would certainly improve in five years. At my level, the progress is simply slow. And it is not that easy to recognize mistakes and get feedback, contrary to popular belief. Ok, I was corrected just yesterday that it is "fourmillement", not "fourmissement" :-D

But I have already made a few adjustments on my own to improve the quality of my speaking. Grammar reviewing, for example. Reading textbooks in the language, especially semiology. Making notes of what doctors say and what they write. The French doctor writing style is something different from normal French and from Czech doctor style too. All these have had some impact (but not that huge as I am progressing slowly, which I have already said) and required other things than simply speaking more.

Intermediates can trully benefit from a large quantity of production. Their main struggles tend to be the flow, thinking faster on their feet, leaving the comfort zone. All these can be improved by quantity of speaking even if you get zero feedback.
I came across some business vocabulary books earlier, linked to an exam from the Paris chamber of commerce.

They also offer a B2 level medical qualification that lists some supporting books.

http://www.centredelanguefrancaise.pari ... ation-dfp/

https://www.centredelanguefrancaise.par ... MED-B2.pdf

There also seems to be a smart phone app.

http://www.centredelanguefrancaise.pari ... ncais-3-0/

---------

A Canadian-in-Japan YouTuber recommended karaoke for improving the speed of your L2 speech/reading. :-)
0 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby Cavesa » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:10 pm

DaveBee wrote:They also offer a B2 level medical qualification that lists some supporting books.

http://www.centredelanguefrancaise.pari ... ation-dfp/

https://www.centredelanguefrancaise.par ... MED-B2.pdf

There also seems to be a smart phone app.

http://www.centredelanguefrancaise.pari ... ncais-3-0/


Thanks, but I don't need those as I am more advanced. I had been using such sources before my medical French exam a few years ago, and I am already C2. The things I am learning are definitely not in these books. But I should have watched House MD in French perhaps. But thanks for taking the effort :-) I just need some more time, to not be as tird as a zombie, and to be careful about catching my mistakes as noone is gonna do that for me (not even tutors, should I feel the need to spend money this way).
0 x

garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby garyb » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:18 am

Interesting to read about your experiences, Cavesa. Sometimes I think that a few months in-country is what I need to get my speaking firmly into advanced territory, and while I'm still sure it would help, I can see that it's not exactly the magic bullet that I sometimes imagine it to be. Progress is always slow at this level and I suppose the only solution is to simply keep up the work. I do meet many people who've lived in the UK for a long time and feel that their English isn't improving much; in some cases they're not making an effort and just hoping for immersion to work its magic, while in others it's clear that they are working hard but progress from "quite advanced" to "very advanced" is simply very slow.

At this point I still feel that there are many gaps in my knowledge of Italian, even for everyday language. My previous trips have helped to fill in some of them, and I'm sure that a longer time in the country would help more, but I'd hit a point of diminishing returns sooner or later.


Quick update yet again because I'm still busy. It's been a few weeks since I did an FSI lesson or finished a film or TV episode. I've been getting through the last episode of È arrivata la felicità in ten-minute sections. I won't be too sad to finish it; it's had its moments but overall it's still too soap-opera for my tastes. Chatted a bit in Italian at the weekend. Booked a lesson for this week but still unsure how much I'm getting out of them, especially now that I have a fairly reliable exchange partner who corrects my mistakes and that my tutor keeps putting up the prices.

I've started watching Narcos since various friends and relatives have recommended it, both for the language and as a good show. It does feel strange settling for a half-English half-Spanish series when there's so much good Spanish-only stuff out there, but I'm curious and so far it's interesting and engaging and it's exposing me to a variety of Latin American accents. Plus Netflix lets me watch it with Italian or French subtitles for extra linguistic fun.

Still thinking about plans for when I finish my job. Part of me wants to go away travelling soon but part of me wants to stay here, work on languages and music and all the rest, and find some freelance work that I could eventually do while travelling. There's a possibility of a work collaboration with an Italian friend; it probably wouldn't make me much money, but it would be experience and a chance to try out using the language in a professional context.
1 x

garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby garyb » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:22 am

I'm feeling burnt out yet again, in general and in particular with Italian. I'm working hard at my job, finishing my projects before I leave, and the music scene is busy. On Sunday I hung out with an Italian friend and a Colombian friend-of-friend who spoke some Italian; I had the theatre class on Monday then a Skype chat on Tuesday before running to band practice; on Wednesday I had my lesson straight after work (which was good, it included an exercise on "finding your dream job" which was very relevant to my recent thoughts) and then another Skype chat after dinner.

I can't exactly complain, since my usual problem has been not having enough speaking opportunities, but at the moment I don't have the energy to keep up! I could also speak Italian with my flatmate, but I've not felt like it on top of all that. I'm making a lot of mistakes that I wouldn't normally make and messing up the pronunciation, which is a sure sign of tiredness: after a certain point it's hard to make my mouth to move properly. On top of that there's the usual intermediate/advanced frustration, the "close yet far" feeling that I mostly speak well but there are still so many things I just can't express and I get stuck with. I never know if the solution is more input or more practice or more tutoring or just remembering to take it easy and be patient. For now I just feel like listening and reading.

I just need to get through the next few weeks and focus on the important things like work and health, then I'll have all the time I need after I finish.

With my recent speaking, especially at the theatre class, I've noticed that my accent is sounding more "foreign" than before: at times I'm really hearing a Scottish or Anglophone tone to it. I don't know if this means it's getting worse, or that it's simply a matter of perception and I'm just becoming more aware of things I wasn't noticing before and this awareness is the first step to improvement. Hopefully the latter! I think I've recently gotten better at the individual sounds and the rhythm, which means I need less mental energy for these and so I can be more aware of the rest, like intonation and general voice quality.

My Spanish is still feeling very neglected, although I'm getting into Narcos. I stayed strong and didn't abandon La casa de los espíritus after the first chapter, but after the second I've decided to shelve it for the time being. I have to look up so many words that it's hard to enjoy the story, and I'd rather spend my time on things that will help my speaking and listening. I might choose something easier like lower-level literature or a good old Harry Potter translation, or just stick to Italian and English in my reading time for the moment. Once I'm on my break I plan to do more listening and less reading in all my languages anyway.

I'm looking more seriously into Workaway, which I started a thread about. It seems like a perfect opportunity to spend some time in TL-speaking countries, travel cheaply, meet people, and maybe even get some work experience using my language and computer skills. Even something like working in a hostel could be good for language practice and interpersonal skills. There are surely opportunities in South America, but even Europe could be good: I could get some immersion in Italy and/or Spain (or I'd even consider France if it's near a good ski resort...), and make the most of free movement in the EU while I can. All the possibilities are exciting!
1 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Chmury and 2 guests