Конец игры

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Arnaud
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Arnaud » Wed May 03, 2017 4:59 am

Xmmm wrote:
Instead, I'm going to veer off and try the telenovela method for a while. The difficulty there
is that there are very few media products that have Russian audio and Russian subtitles. At
least that I know of.

For Russian I will be watching золушка.ру on YouTube. This is a film by StarMedia and I doubt
it won any awards. But the language is simple and the subtitles are accurate. что еще мне надо?

StarMedia has a playlist of the series subtitled in russian.
Another source of russian subtitles is kino.1tv.ru but you have to pay (and it's not user-friendly when you live outside of Russia...and they have your telephone number and credit card number: I used an old card and a trash number I usually use for "suspicious" transactions. It's working okay, but in the evening the speed isn't fantastic, difficult to have an HD definition. But the quality is correct to read the subtitles/CC)
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Xmmm
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Xmmm » Mon May 08, 2017 9:32 pm

Week #1 for my attempt at the telenovela method has been interesting. I’m doing the following:

1. Watch a ten minute chunk of a show with L2 audio and good L2 subtitles. Look up all the words I don’t know and make sure I know what the sentences mean. Put all the new vocab into “bronze lists”. This is watching #1.
2. Watch four more times, repeating all the dialogue out loud and trying to mimic the actors. This is not particularly fun, but by the last repetition I can go along at native speed for all the short sentences. I still have to hit the pause button and break it down when characters start rattling on about something.
3. When I’ve worked through the whole show, go back and watch the entire show five more times, alternating between L2 subtitles and no subtitles.

Russian:
золушка.ру is going to end up being a better movie than I thought it would be. Which is not to say “a good movie.” But it will at least be watchable and mildly entertaining, which is a big step up from most of the StarMedia programs I’ve seen.

Italian:
With House of Cards I’m only 40 minutes into episode one with the telenovela method (it’s time consuming!). But I’m watching it extensively at the same time and have finished the first 18 episodes. Also, three episodes of Black Mirror.

I’m still at least a week away from doing my first “distillation” of vocabulary for the goldlist method. I know I remember all the bad words I've learned in Italian but that may be it. :)
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Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел

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neofight78
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Location: Novosibirsk, Russia
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby neofight78 » Mon May 08, 2017 9:57 pm

I shall follow your Telenovela method experiment with interest. I'm also thinking I need to engage with Russian TV more actively...
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Xmmm
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Xmmm » Tue May 16, 2017 1:10 am

I’ve done about two weeks of the telenovela method. I’ve just finished the intensive phase of listening to episode #1 of House of Cards in Italian. Now I get to watch it five times from end to end. I’ve added 229 words and phrases to my bronze list from that episode, including:

diamoci una mossa (let's get moving)
ti ho cercato dappertutto (I've been looking for you everywhere)
basta che tu la chieda (all you have to do is ask)
non lasciarti abbattere (I won't let you down)
dimmelo in faccia (say it to my face)
che cazzo succede (what the hell happened)
cosa la porta qui (what brings you here)
cosa le fa pensare (what makes you think)
non sia lusingata (I am not flattered)
che lo posso fare (I can do it)
tienimi aggiornato (keep me informed)
quello che chiede (what you ask)
ti prendano sul serio (they take you seriously)
grazie per esserti presa il disturbo (thanks for taking the trouble)
pazza di gioia (mad with joy)
sa quello che fa (he knows what he's doing)
avrei scommesso (I would have bet)
fai un passo indietro (take a step back)

So I guess the telenovela method ought to be called "the goldmine method". :)

I have similar results for Russian. However, I've been busy with work the last couple of weeks and sad to say, if I have a choice between House of Cards in Italian and Cinderella.ru in Russian, I have a tendency to take the Italian. And it's not that Cinderella.ru is all that bad, it's just that House of Cards is great.

I saw that Netflix did have one show in Russian, "Silver Spoon." I tried to watch ten minutes of it and was appalled. I guess I will have to go through Arnaud's list of StarMedia productions with subtitles very carefully ...
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Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел

Xmmm
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Xmmm » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:19 am

Work got busy and I degenerated into just watching TV for entertainment purposes with as little effort as possible.

I've watched 44 episodes of House of Cards in Italian with Italian subtitles. Bene, bene, bene. Non fraintendere lo mio concetto di lealtà.

I've watched 6 episodes of Bortko's ИДИОТь. Really good.

Three episodes of Мажор (Silver Spoon on Netflix). The premise is ridiculous. The first 20 minutes of episode #1 is almost unwatchable. If you can overlook those two things, it actually turns into a decent show (with the caveat that it is yet another police procedural).

"The Sniffer" -- tried five minutes of this one. Maybe it's a good show, but five minutes was all I could handle.

Will get back to telenovela method when I have more time and energy ...
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Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел

Arnaud
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Arnaud » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:37 am

Xmmm wrote:Three episodes of Мажор (Silver Spoon on Netflix). The premise is ridiculous. The first 20 minutes of episode #1 is almost unwatchable. If you can overlook those two things, it actually turns into a decent show (with the caveat that it is yet another police procedural).

I watched the 2 seasons and I share completly your p.o.v, the first 20 minutes are unbearable, the play of the main actor is limited to a few facial expressions that he keeps on recycling like old bottles, but the show is entertaining. The two main actors have also played in a mini-series called беги where they are a little younger and keep running and firing at all they see (I watch very intellectual programs, as you can see :lol: )
Anyway, if interested you can find the russian transcript of the first season in my log.
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Xmmm
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Xmmm » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:00 am

Russian

I would like to give a big 'thanks' to Arnaud for the Мажор transcripts. I've watched episode #1 four times now and translated everything in the transcript I didn't understand. There's lots of new vocabulary on my bronze list: junkies, heroin, meth, Nazi fighter pilots, perverts ... it's all good. :)

So ... what I'm seeing with the telenovela method is that on a scale of 1 to 10, you have to rate a show at least a 7 or it's not going to work. I can't finish watching any Star Media productions even once ... there's no point. However, Мажор gets a solid 7.5 and that is good enough for multiple repeat viewings.

So I'll try to watch it six more times and then move on to episode #2.

Italian

Here I run into the opposite problem with the telenovela method ... I liked House of Cards so much I had no patience for repeats. I've now watched all five seasons in Italian with Italian subtitles. Now I get a long break and can go back to the first episode and find out what they were really about.

Goldlist Method

I'm sceptical that this is really the most efficient way to learn vocabulary. But it does seem like a very pleasant way. I can't imagine typing all these words into Memrise and clicking through that annoying app for hours. Another advantage of the Goldlist method is that my penmanship is improving. I have no idea how to write Russian cursive and no intention of learning, but my printing is becoming much more solid and legitimate looking.
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Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел

Xmmm
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Xmmm » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:20 pm

Russian

I'm continuing with the telenovela method. I have finished three episodes of мажор. By finished I mean:

    I watched it once with Russian transcripts and copied out and translated everything I didn't understand.
    I then watched or listened to it nine more times with no subtitles
    Towards the end I started shadowing random lines like a deranged parrot

Doing this with a one hour show takes me about 15 hours.

It's pretty amazing (and also obvious) that if you read and translate the transcript in advance, your listening comprehension will improve. Listening with the transcript in front of me, my comprehension is 95%. Listening on the tenth time without the transcript, I'm still at 80%. Normally I would be at 30%.

So, I like this method a lot, although it's somewhat labor intensive.

Italian

With Italian, I'm trying to do the telenovela method, but I keep switching to just extensive viewing instead. After five seasons of House of Cards, I'm now on episode #4 of Frontier, have watched two episodes of Paranoid, and may try Roman Empire: Reign of Blood. I want to get back to Italian shows, but they unfortunately don't provide subtitles so I will stick with the dubbed stuff for now.

Goldlist Method

Although this is a pleasant method, I don't think it's suitable for me. I've noticed that when I copy the list of 25 words to the list of 17 words, and the list of 17 words to the list of 12 words, etc. I tend to introduce typos. Writing by hand п and л are pretty similar and I tend to drop я when it appears in the middle of words. Of course, I can fix the mistakes but that involves a certain amount of scribbling and then the notebook ends up looking like a mess.
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Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел

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neofight78
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby neofight78 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:33 pm

Xmmm wrote:Towards the end I started shadowing random lines like a deranged parrot


I'm confused, is this stage part of the process, a byproduct or both? :)

How much value do you feel you are getting out of the 9 repeat listens? Would more or less be better? Do notice anything changing as you repeat more and more times?

I'm sort of trying this myself. Well, doing the decoding and creating flashcards for new words / constructions. Repeat listening needs to happen next I guess, but I'm wondering how many times. Should I listen to all of it whilst out and about, or should I be sitting down rewinding the bits that are still tricky?

Dunno, just interested how you are finding this all. I'm following with interest...
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Xmmm
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Xmmm » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:01 pm

neofight78 wrote:
Xmmm wrote:Towards the end I started shadowing random lines like a deranged parrot


I'm confused, is this stage part of the process, a byproduct or both? :)

How much value do you feel you are getting out of the 9 repeat listens? Would more or less be better? Do notice anything changing as you repeat more and more times?

I'm sort of trying this myself. Well, doing the decoding and creating flashcards for new words / constructions. Repeat listening needs to happen next I guess, but I'm wondering how many times. Should I listen to all of it whilst out and about, or should I be sitting down rewinding the bits that are still tricky?

Dunno, just interested how you are finding this all. I'm following with interest...


As I understand it, the main point of the shadowing is to keep you engaged in the listening. You can't zone out or you miss your next chance to say совсем мозги пропил. :) And the secondary benefit of course, is mimicking the actors who are using all that emotion, which lets you improve your accent/expressiveness.

To be honest, I see value repeating up to five or six times, then the gains start to tail off. I'm wondering if I go through episode #1 five times, episode #2 five times, then rewatch the whole season five times as review/consolidation kind of thing. That might be better.

You know, I started all this as experiment a couple months ago and didn't know if I would stick with it. Since it seems like I'm going to, I'm wondering if I ought to break down and buy the book (telenovela method).
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Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел


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