Kraemder's attempt at JLPT N1 (Japanese)

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kraemder
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Re: Kraemder's attempt at JLPT N2 (Japanese)

Postby kraemder » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:53 pm

Aozora wrote:
kraemder wrote:Looking at some web articles about learning foreign languages... and I'm sure everyone here has done this... you are supposed to be able to learn or guess from context the meaning of words if you know about 3000 words or so. I know more than that and yet I still struggle to guess the meanings of words.


Figures like that never worked for me either. As you said, even 6000 words isn't enough, at least for Japanese. I'm thinking there's a kind of breakthrough around 10,000 words, but there will still be plenty of unknown words. I haven't been to Japan, so unfortunately I have no advice on that front.



Yeah. I think people writing those articles about foreign languages in general have European languages in mind. A high context language like Japanese just cuts out unnecessary words from the sentence leaving you with a bare bones thought without real help. At least that's how it feels. Although reading, depending on the author, I'm starting to get it a bit. Or maybe, I'm getting more comfortable with kanji and just guessing what a word and its reading is based on what it usually is because I've seen the kanji in other words. Even if you've seen a kanji before, I think seeing it in another word in a text that you haven't seen before and being comfortable with that is still something that takes time. For me anyway.

According to the Luca Lampariello emails I get, there is a breakthrough at 10,000 words however. I think Japanese needs that 10,000 more than other languages do. But that's in respect to reading. Regarding conversation, I gotta say I think other social skills are more important.
Last edited by kraemder on Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gsbod
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Re: Kraemder's attempt at JLPT N2 (Japanese)

Postby gsbod » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:32 pm

For a closely related language, 3000 could even be too high. For an English speaker learning Japanese, it is most definitely too low.

I do remember how strange I felt about passing N2. Because it is used as a filter for job applications and seems to try to position itself as similar to a B2 level, I thought my Japanese would have to be better than it actually was to enable me to pass the exam. Maybe N1 is the true breakthrough level.

In any case, it sounds like your Japanese is still going in the right direction!
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kraemder
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Re: Kraemder's attempt at JLPT N2 (Japanese)

Postby kraemder » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:06 am

gsbod wrote:For a closely related language, 3000 could even be too high. For an English speaker learning Japanese, it is most definitely too low.

I do remember how strange I felt about passing N2. Because it is used as a filter for job applications and seems to try to position itself as similar to a B2 level, I thought my Japanese would have to be better than it actually was to enable me to pass the exam. Maybe N1 is the true breakthrough level.

In any case, it sounds like your Japanese is still going in the right direction!


I'm sure your Japanese is extremely good for a westerner. And I can have very intelligent conversations in Japanese but the person I'm talking to does have to explain some things to me using different words than what might first pop into their head. If they just talk normal I have to guess and more likely ask follow questions to understand. However, reading books... I'm finally starting to see progress with every new book I start. Really. I feel like every book I pickup is easier than the last. That wasn't really the case before - it was all kind of the same.

I remember when you passed the N2 too and you were kind of confused. heheh. There's still more to learn ;). When I pass the N1 maybe I can explain how it feels compared to being N2.
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kraemder
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Re: Kraemder's attempt at JLPT N2 (Japanese)

Postby kraemder » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:44 am

Of course when I talk to Japanese people I sometimes talk about my Japanese studies and goals. When I tell them I'm hoping to pass the N1 next, I'm surprised many of them say isn't that native level? I suppose they've talked to other foreigners about Japanese before. I know a friend of mine in the sharehouse was one of those people who subscribed to the idea that even Japanese people would have a hard time passing the N1. I basically contradicted him enough times that he stopped. I think this rumor gets spread because people struggle so much with Japanese and it hurts their self esteem a little so that they make it out to be more than it is... hey, it's not my fault, I'm still really smart, NOBODY can do this stuff!

Of course they are smart and maybe good at languages but the native advantage just can't be over stated. I've had natives help me with N1 material and they always get it right. They often will say WOW that's hard! Some N2 problems get this reaction too because they can get tricky. But they also always get it right. They just have to actually try, which surprises them when they're helping a foreigner with a Japanese workbook.

I was thinking what would be native or near native. I think if I got a perfect score on the N1, then I could claim near native level of understanding Japanese. Maybe even 1 or 2 questions wrong. An acquaintance of mine got a perfect score. As far as I could tell she spoke Japanese like a native. Her mom is native Japanese but she grew up in Vancouver and went to Japanese language school once a week starting around kindergarten. She took the test during college.

I guess the psychology behind why some people insist even Japanese people would struggle with N1 just interests me. I've seen TOEIC questions and I would be ashamed if I got less than a perfect score on that test.

In case you're wondering, I have no expectations of getting anywhere near a perfect score. If I scrape by with a 102 or so I will be thankful. Maybe if continue to live in Japan for years and years -and- continue to study Japanese everyday... hard to picture.
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DCDC
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Re: Kraemder's attempt at JLPT N2 (Japanese)

Postby DCDC » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:55 pm

Oooh, I hate this. People spread all this bullshit just to feel better about themselves. And it just escalates and escalates, and then they say "nothing more than N2 is needed for anything ever" or "you need to be around N3 to become a translator". I'm looking forward to "N4 means you're fluent" :roll: I know some people with N1 and they're all pretty humble and admit that they're still far from the "virtually native" level.
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dampingwire
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Re: Kraemder's attempt at JLPT N2 (Japanese)

Postby dampingwire » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:53 pm

DCDC wrote:Oooh, I hate this. People spread all this bullshit just to feel better about themselves.


I completely agree.

Although I reserve the right to come back and edit this post in the unlikely event that I ever pass N1 :-)
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新完全マスター N2聴解 : 94 / 103新完全マスター N2読解 : 99 / 177
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kraemder
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Re: Kraemder's attempt at JLPT N2 (Japanese)

Postby kraemder » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:37 pm

Well I just hope I don't pass the N1 and go to McDonald's the same day I get the news and have to post that I now have an N1 certificate but I still had to just say yes to the cashier when he paused without catching what he actually said. It happened again just yesterday O.o.

I'm going to try something I haven't tried yet. I'm going to study the vocabulary for a book before I read it. I found this text anaylizer tool for windows that sorts the vocabulary of a text file and gives you the words sorted by frequency. I actually found this app a while back but couldn't quite get it to work but I figured out what I was doing wrong. Anyway, for the book Shaman Clan 1 I ran the etext through the app and got what looks like a good list of words. There's a lot. I went down the list of words that repeat at least once and added them as a study list in the Midori app. I have 472 although I put some in just to review because they didn't click immediately but I used to know them. There's a lot more words that don't repeat at all but I think this is good enough. If I study it and see a word I don't know, I think knowing that it definitely does not repeat again in the text makes it emotionally easier to ignore and move on. I should obviously need a dictionary less doing this which should make the whole process more enjoyable, and seeing words I've studied in context somewhat quickly might get them to stick better? I actually did start this book already but I'm only a few chapters in. I found it really difficult because it's a fantasy story using a lot of vocabulary that doesn't get used in normal life at all. (村上春樹 uses normal vocabulary but if this works well I may want to use it with his books if I can too)
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gsbod
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Re: Kraemder's attempt at JLPT N2 (Japanese)

Postby gsbod » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:00 pm

Maybe you could secretly record your McDonalds interactions and use the recordings as study material :D
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kraemder
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Re: Kraemder's attempt at JLPT N2 (Japanese)

Postby kraemder » Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:10 pm

gsbod wrote:Maybe you could secretly record your McDonalds interactions and use the recordings as study material :D


I tried that. But then they spoke normal Japanese and I got bored. It's like they know.
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Re: Kraemder's attempt at JLPT N2 (Japanese)

Postby Sizen » Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:10 pm

kraemder wrote:Well I just hope I don't pass the N1 and go to McDonald's the same day I get the news and have to post that I now have an N1 certificate but I still had to just say yes to the cashier when he paused without catching what he actually said.

Not to be a bummer or anything, but just a couple months before passing the N1, I went to buy some books in a store and looked like an idiot when I couldn't hear what the cashier was asking me. You'd think I'd be able to understand when I'm being asked if I need a plastic bag... These things just sort of happen, though. It's frustrating, but with time, it goes away. Sometimes it takes longer than expected, though, especially with languages like Japanese. Hang in there.
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