Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:04 pm

Iversen wrote:I do (or did) use key signatures with the clefs at the beginning of each line - there is in fact a sharp in the first piece, indicating that its basic tonality is e minor. But most composers would not write a sharp or flat again if a note was tied to the same note in the previous measure by a slur - I would write it as a help to the performer.


That's very helpful that you did this. if I read a slur over the measure, and the first measure it was a sharp (or flat), then I wouldn't know if the note in the second measure should be the sharp (or flat) or natural, so if the slur meant to continue the sharp, or meant legato.

Iversen wrote:Violas (Bratsch auf Deutsch) are normally notated with a C clef that points to the third line (but with a G clef for very high parts - like the violins). You can see the same clef in music for cellos and bassoons, but pointing at the second line from the top. If your were in the philosophical mood you could say that using different clefs also changes where you see a note with a certain pitch. The difference is that transposing parts also seemingly change the tonality of a piece (like when a piece in C major gets two sharps in the clarinet part).


This is interesting, I didn't think of the philosophical idea that using different clefs changes where you see a note with a certain pitch. The different keys have a different feeling for me, so some are freidnly, unfriednly, or some are rich, cold etc. I really like D major, and A flat major although I prefer to listen to sad or melancholic music, so the minor ones. I love the modulations major to minor as well, especially on the piano.

Iversen wrote: The reason that some instruments transpose is that they occurred in several sizes (clarinets today mostly are B flat, but sometimes A, and there are smaller clarinets in E flat). By using transposition the players could lull themselves into the illusion that they played instruments that all had the basic pitch C, and that meant that they only had to learn one set of fingerings, namely the one for an instrument in C. And who payed the price for this? The composers, conductors and those musicians who didn't have exactly the instrument which a composer had demanded.


Thanks for this explanation. I had thougth about this and didn't know why becasue transposing seems such a stressful and annoying thing.

Iversen wrote: The most silly transposition system is that used by hornists: when their parts are written with the G clef a standard horn in F transposes a quint downwards, but with an f clef it transposes a quart upwards. That''s bad enough, but add to that calamity that the valves only were invented in the 18. century so before that composers demanded a wealth of differently tuned instruments (or one instrument with a set of auxiliary tubes), but nowadays hornist almost always use a standard instrument in F - except for certain very high parts which they play on an in instrument i B flat -or an double instrument with a valve that changes the tuning from a low F to high B flat). So they have to transpose all the old parts with weird tunings in they heads while playing on a horn with the wrong tuning. The only sensible people in all this hoolabaloo are the tubaists - they also have tuned instruments, but their parts are always written at pitch. Hurray for the tuba! And of course for the trombonists too who have had smaller instruments (there are concerts by for instance Albrechtsberger for a cute little alto trombone), but they have never been tempted to claim they were transposing. They used the alto clef instead for this instrument (the one normally reserved for the viola parts).


Wow!! I've never seen the alto trombone before, it's very cute. It sounds sweet, if I didn't see it in the video, I woudl think that it's a different instrument, not a trombone. Maybe a cornet, but it's very soft. I mean if I listened without the picture. So there is another instrument than the viola with the alto clef, I didn't know that.

What I don't know about but think about is the quarter tones, and also music that isn't on the major / minor foundation, like mayeb the arabic music, which doesn't seem to have measures or keys or tones like the western music. Of course I know that wetsern musicians use quarter tones, like Schönberg etc and anyway, vibrato on the string instruments means that the note isn't exaclty the same pitch all the time, but tiny little bit lower and higher.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:07 pm

Only a handful of 'classical' composers have used quarternotes - people like Alois Haba, but not Schönberg. Schönberg invented the 12-tone mechanics, and that's bad enough - he shouldn't also be blamed for the quarternotes. On the other hand jazz musicians habitually play 'blue' notes which actually don't exist on a piano - but I'm not sure that they ever have cared to indicate where they occur. If you are a groovy type of person you are supposed to feeeeeel that! Actually there is a small secret buried in the tuning of a piano: it has to be out of tune! If you pile quints on top of each other they should sooner or later coincide with a pile of octaves - but they don't. The quint pile will actually be little bit too high, so to make the quints fit with the octaves you make all quints on a welltempered piano slightly smaller than they should be. Johann Sebastian Bach was one of the composers that advocated this system because it allowed him to write in all the tonalities, whereas you had to avoid some of them before because they simply sounded terrible. With the 'welltempered' temperament all tonalities sound slightly terrible, but at least equally terrible. Pianists don't have to think about this (they can leave the problem to the piano tuner), but if you tune a string instrument with quints between the strings then you have to know exactly how much each string should differ from the 'pure' quint.

As for the clefs they don't really have anything to do with the major and mineur tonalities, nor with the church tonalities (or modes) of Medieval music. They simply indicate where a certain pitch is located on a staff. The clef used by violins and the right hand system of pianos is called a G clef because it curls around the line that corresponds to a g. The one used by cellos and the left hand in piano music is called an F clef because it curls around and f. The last one, the C clef, can be placed in two places: violas have it pointing at the middle line, and that's - lo and behold - a middle c. But cellos and bassons playing high notes can be notated with the same clef (named alto clef), and then it points at the second line from above .. but it is still a middle c (and the C clef is then called a tenor clef). The only clefs and positions used today are listed below:

clefs.jpg
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:19 pm

EN: As I mentioned in the thread about languages represented at your local library, we have literature in a fair number of languages, and on any shelf you can find books in ENglish and sometimes other languages among the Danish ones. But since I want to read non fiction in other languages than Danish and English then I have a problem. OK, this morning - and I have to say that I didn't know about that other thread - I actually brought home a few speciments from the foreign literature shelves.

It started out with me passing past a shelf and noticing a THIN book by the late Umberto Eco: Postille a Il Nome della Rosa. OK, I read the whole Rose when I was at the university bach in the 70s, but when I tried to reread a few years ago I found it boring and longwinded beyond belief. This one might be a commentary or whatever, but at least it is a nifty little thing with just 45 pages.

As I was already breaking my wellestablished habit of avoiding literature I grabbed a few thin books more - like a "Leyendas de Guatemala" by Asturias -(93 pages including "preguntas"), followed by Темные Аллеи by Иван Бынин , and for a Russian book its 269 pages is nothing. But when I tried The master and Margarita thing a few years ago I quit in disgust after some 4 or 5 chapters, and that was much less than 269 pages. And finally "Gula húsið" in Icelandic, even though I still haven't ordered flight tickets and accommodation for the Polyglot conference up there later this year - but I really should read some more in that language so now I'll force myself to get through one of the few books I have access to before the event.

And yes, I did actually borrow one book more, a book in Danish about the prophecies of Nostradamus for the next 50 years. I would have preferred to reread those quatrains in Middle French (I first read them when I wrote an essay about French occultism during my study years) , but this work has the advantage that it was published in 1993 - so now I can see how things went in the first half of that time span. I much prefer that kind of backwards perspective to one more book with loose and unfounded predictions about the future. Like the original book by mr. Damus...

LAT: Ut iam in lingva anglica scripsi, praeter modum ab usu habitudinem meam selectionis librorum ex bibliotecae abscessi. Ut scitur, non mihi valde placet literatura fictiva (praeter libri Tolkienis Rawlinguisque). Opinor quod autores nimis descriptiones interminabiles amant de homines foedi/stupidi/malefici se implicantes in situationes omni spe destituitas modo ut lectores exagitari et pacem mentis suam perturbare. Forsitan quidam lectores amant eam perdere, sed mihi satis est omnia mala in mundo reale videre - quam exempli gratia dum heri in acta diurna legi quod Daesh rursus Palmyram habere (id iam sciebam), sed etiam quod exercitus syriacus circa 7000 militum prope locum habebat, qui tamen fugebant sine oppidum vel ruinas qualibet defendere. Sis ruinas supra videre quam fuerant ante bellum, dum Syria etiamtum dictatura fida, pacifica ac tuta fuit:

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:39 pm

Iversen wrote:Only a handful of 'classical' composers have used quarternotes - people like Alois Haba, but not Schönberg. Schönberg invented the 12-tone mechanics, and that's bad enough - he shouldn't also be blamed for the quarternotes.


blamed for quarternotes hahahaha

Ooups, sorry, I thought that it was Schönberg, so I suppose that I muddled up quarternotes with 12-tone. I udnerstand quarternotes, but not 12-tone.


Iversen wrote: Actually there is a small secret buried in the tuning of a piano: it has to be out of tune! If you pile quints on top of each other they should sooner or later coincide with a pile of octaves - but they don't. The quint pile will actually be little bit too high, so to make the quints fit with the octaves you make all quints on a welltempered piano slightly smaller than they should be. Johann Sebastian Bach was one of the composers that advocated this system because it allowed him to write in all the tonalities, whereas you had to avoid some of them before because they simply sounded terrible. With the 'welltempered' temperament all tonalities sound slightly terrible, but at least equally terrible. Pianists don't have to think about this (they can leave the problem to the piano tuner), but if you tune a string instrument with quints between the strings then you have to know exactly how much each string should differ from the 'pure' quint.


Oups again, when I tune my violin I tune quints between the strings, not the difference from the pure one. Although now I think about this, nromally I tune it with the piano, so I play the note on the piano then tune the string. I know that the people who can play well tune it without the piano but all from the A, so they pay the quints, or maybe then a little less.

I'd heard of the "Wohltemperierte" piano, but only in German and I didn't know why it had the name. So to tune a piano must be really complicated, I hadn't known about the quints.

Iversen wrote: As for the clefs they don't really have anything to do with the major and mineur tonalities, nor with the church tonalities (or modes) of Medieval music. They simply indicate where a certain pitch is located on a staff. The clef used by violins and the right hand system of pianos is called a G clef because it curls around the line that corresponds to a g. The one used by cellos and the left hand in piano music is called an F clef because it curls around and f. The last one, the C clef, can be placed in two places: violas have it pointing at the middle line, and that's - lo and behold - a middle c. But cellos and bassons playing high notes can be notated with the same clef (named alto clef), and then it points at the second line from above .. but it is still a middle c (and the C clef is then called a tenor clef). The only clefs and positions used today are listed below:

clefs.jpg


The tenor clef looks like the alto one but escaping from the stave, or bouncing, or a typo (sorry, poor tenor clef haha). I can read the treble, bass and sort of the alto. I won't need the tenor one. It's weird that a tenor (singer) doesn't use the tenor clef. Has the tenor clef got a native instrument? I mean like the alto has got the alto trombone and the viola, the treble has got the violin, flute etc, and the bas has got the cello, contrabas, etc

A drummer showed me their music, and they've got weird symbols for the different instruments (cymbal, which drum etc ). I tried to play a piece, and it was very difficult to remember (and coordinate) which drum or cymbal and then one is with a pedal for your foot as well. The drumkit is fun and cool, but not beautiful like a violin, viola, cello or piano.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:32 am

No, as far as I know there aren't any instruments that only use the tenor clef. And personally I preferred using the treble clef even with cellos and bassoons far back when I still wrote music and played the cello (and the violin and the paino). Three clefs are enough - and if the violists wouldn't protest I would also be happy to throw out the alto clef. The deepest tone on a viola is a C which would demand four auxiliary lines below the staff if written with a treble clef - and nobody would protest at using four lines above the staff for high notes so why do people wail if they occur below the staff? The reason may be both that viola players aren't keen on lines below the staff and that they simply love to have their own private clef - but if some evil composer much to their chagrin orders them to play high notes they will teethgnashingly accept to use the treble clef in order to avoid the dreaded auxiliary lines. I suppose that people who like going to extremes aren't likely to become viola players. By the way, why didn't I write 'violists' here -since most other musicians are called the name of their instrument plus -ist? Well, mostly because there once was (and now again is) an instrument called the viola da gamba - or 'leg viola'.

IT: La viola da gamba ("Gambe" auf Deutsch) fu uno strumento con 6 corde per giocare in posizione verticale, tenuta in posizione solo schiacciando le gambe intorno ad essa. Al contrario, la viola da braccio fu tenuta in posizione orizzontale (tra la spalla sinistra e la mascella) - e questo strumento poi è diventato la viola ("Bratsch" auf Deutsch). Tuttavia, un piccolo viola da braccio è stato chiamata violino perché sarebbe ingombrante dire *viola da braccino. Dalla famiglia delle viole da gamba si ha fatto un violone talmente grande che le gambe di un essere umano normale non bastavano più, e dunque fu necessario meterlo sul pavimento. Lo strano è che il contrabasso moderno ha ritenuto la forma degli strumenti a gamba, con la schiena piatta e transizione arrotondata tra il collo e il corpo (e con un bastoncino al di sotto per proteggere il legno dello strumento). Al contrario, il violoncello ("Cello" auf Deutsch) è un vero e proprio membro della famiglia Braccia - anche se in questo caso sono le braccia di un normale essere umano che sono troppo corti. Inizialmente i musicisti dovevano tenerlo tra le gambe (come le viola da gamba), ma questa posizione era troppo faticoso per i poveri violoncellisti e perciò hanno introdotto un bastone al fondo dello strumento. Il violoncello si mostra ciò nonostante come vera Braccia perché ha il tipico posteriore curvo, brusco passaggio dal corpo al collo .. e quinte tra le corde, dove le viole da braccia hanno terze (salvo tra le corde no. 3 e 4, dove hanno una terza).

By the way, I noticed that Vogeltje wrote "Oups again, when I tune my violin" .. So the instrumentarium has grown?

Apart from that, I have been off the internet for a couple of days. Instead I have studied languages while sitting in my armchair. For instance I had the Albanese (or rather Kosovan) channel and the Croat and Serbian and Montenegrin channels running for some time even though I still am far from understanding what they say. To be honest, these languages have got less attention from me for some time, and because I know them less well than the Romance and Germanic languages they tend to get rusty faster. I wanted to stop that from happening, so now I'm doing a quick run-through of the Serbian dictionary I used for wordlists a couple of years ago, and I have been studying some old printouts. Why old? Well, because for repetition purposes it's more efficient to relearn something you once knew than it is to add new stuff on top of a foundation that is wobbly and full of holes.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby tarvos » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:03 pm

Question, Iversen: I know you're going to the gathering, but will you also intend to apply as a speaker again? I have done so this time round. I hope to see another of your talks :)
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:59 pm

Yes, and Lydia Machova has sent me a mail informing me that my speech proposal has been accepted. I am going to speak about the 'Stammbaum' theory and the weird fact that it seem to function even though micro changes in languages seem to spread according to the wave theory, and also about the way dialects and (in some cases) languages drift towards languages that may not even be on the same branch in the tree. I have chosen to speak in English, but maybe it should have been in German since both theories have German names.

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Right now I'm revising my Serbian vocabulary while watching TV (without sound) about weird animal friends and listening to virtuoso piano music by the 'great galopping Gottschalk' so I'll not write more right now about my activities since yesterday - maybe later today. I'll just mention that one of the words I have refreshed today was the Serbian word for logbook: бродски дневник ('ship news/diary'). It will take a couple of days to get through the rest of the azbuka.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:58 pm

Iversen wrote:Yes, and Lydia Machova has sent me a mail informing me that my speech proposal has been accepted. I am going to speak about the 'Stammbaum' theory(...)


Aaah, disappointment galore! After the recent spree of posts about music, I was hoping to hear a lecture in Frisian/Platt/Furlano on obscure musical instruments and their clefs. ;)
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:07 pm

Platt: De Veranstalters warrn villicht Tiet voor lütte improvisierte Vöördrache maken, en dunn kan ik jo feif Minuten över ölle Musiekinstrumente schnacken, aver niet op Freesch - dat höff ik nich lehrt. Friulesch ook nich..

NO: For resten, eg såg det norske språkprogramma igjen for ett par dager siden. Visste du att dei svenska SK-lyd sprer seg som ein virus gjennom de norske dialekt? Det er ein av de eksemplene eg kunne nevne på språklig interferens i Bratislava (hviss eg ikkje glemmer det i mellomtida).

FR: D'ailleurs je me suis reveillé au milieu de la nuit, et au lieu d'essayer de dormir aussitôt j'ai fini le livre sur le fameux devin Nostradamus. C'est un livre écrit en 1993 par un monsieur Lemesurier, qui a depuis été traduit en Danois - y inclus les citations traduit du moins deux fois en Danois des quatrains. Pour ceux qui aimeraient lire le texte original vous pouvez conculter par example le site sacred-texts.com, où vous trouverez les Centuries 1-10 en français et anglais.

Mr. Lemesurier constate d'abord que ses prédécesseurs ont essayé de comprendre les quatrains un par un dans l'ordre ils arrivent dans les éditions nombreuses, mais plutôt confuses des Centuries. Lui a décidé de rassembler les quatrains qui ont un thème en commun et de cette manière construire une histoire cohérente. Et pour un sceptique comme moi il y a la déjà quelque chose qui me fait douter que le résultat pourrait être autant l'histoire de Mr. Lemesurier que celle de Mr. Nostradamus, une conclusion renforcée par le fait que Nostradamus a délibérément essayé de rendre son texte difficile à lire en introduisant des allusions confuses et même des fautes d'orthographe délibérées (souvent basé sur le son des mots en français moyen), ce qui laisse le herméneute contemporain beaucoup trop de liberté a imposer ses propres idées. Mr. Lemesurier reconnaît ce problème (du moins à l'égard de ses prédécesseurs), et il déclare d'abord que les interprétations antérieurs généralement étaient fausses, et puis il garde soi-même en disant qu'on ne peut savoir si les interprétations des prédictions sont correctes qu'après les évènements - et alors votre humble soussigné sceptique tire la conclusion que à ce moment-là ce ne sont plus des interprétations de prédictions, mais des essais de sauver la face d'un prophète bienaimé, mais raté.

Mr. Nostradamus a eu la chance à avoir une disciple fidèle dans la reine Cathérine de Médici, et quand son mari Henri II (celui avec Diane de Poitiers - vous vous souvenez?) est mort dans une manière bizarre qui allait comme un gant à une des prédictions les plus hasardeuses de Notredame, elle n'a plus douté un mot de ce qu'il disait - il est même possible qu'elle a choisi la nuit de St. Bartholomée pour le meurtre des huguenots parce que cette nuit était mentionné dans un des quatrains avec quelques villes connus pour leurs populations protéstantes (y inclus par example La Rochelle). Et voilà déjà une prédiction réussie...

Eh alors, qu'est-ce qu'il s'aurait passé depuis 1993 selon Mr. Lemesurier? Dans un des rares quatrains (X73) qui indique une année précise (1999) Nostradamus prédit une invasion mongole (interprétée par Mr. Lemesurier comme une invasion musulmane puisque personne lui croirait s'il avait dit que la Mongolie encore une fois devienne la force redoutable qu'elle était sous Djenghis Khan):

L'an mil neuf cens nonante neuf sept mois
Du ciel viendra vn grand Roy d'effrayeur
Resusciter le grand Roy d'Angolmois,
Auant apres Mars regner par bon heur.

The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror:
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.


Cette invasion détruirait L'Italie, Le Sud de France, La Péninsule Ibérique et finalement le Nord de France, avant que les fortunes de guerre tourneraient contre les armées invahisseuses en Belgique. Est-ce que cela s'est passé depuis 1999 jusque maintenant? Non. Même le flot récent de réfugiés de la Syrie ne peut pas fonctionner comme excuse, puisque son route a passé par le Balkan et Autriche à l'Allemagne et la Suède, encore que selon Lemesurier/ Nostradamus les armées de l'est auraient du passer par l'Albanie a l'Italie, avec une force secondaire venant du Maroc en Espagne (et ici on se souvient que Grenade avait été conquis par les rois chrétiens moins d'une siècle avant la conception des Centuries). Est-ce que rien de cela s'est passé? Non. Et pape Jean-Paul II n'est pas mort non plus près de Lyon en fuite des cendres d'une Romé détruite.

On a le droit (et peut-être même raison) d'être inquiet au sujet des perspectives de l'avenir dans les années à venir, mais ici en 1917 il est clair que Mr. Lemesurier n'a guère dit un mot vrai sur les évènement depuis 1993, et alors pourquoi se fier à des prophètes ou à leurs interprètes? Bah, même les génies de Davos n'avait prédit en 2015 le Brexit de l'Angleterre, ni la prise du pouvoir de Mr. Trump. Si vous voulez une prophétie vraiment réussie, il faudrait plutôt consulter la bande dessinée Doonesbury que Nostradamus - là on avait prédit déjà en 1987 (et encore une fois en 1999) la présidence de Trump!

Donc, lisez - si vous voulez - l'oeuvre de Nostradamus comme une oeuvre de littérature puisqu'il n'y a rien de plus dedans.

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tarvos
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
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Languages: Native: NL, EN
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Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=1&TPN=1
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby tarvos » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:03 am

Iversen wrote:Yes, and Lydia Machova has sent me a mail informing me that my speech proposal has been accepted. I am going to speak about the 'Stammbaum' theory and the weird fact that it seem to function even though micro changes in languages seem to spread according to the wave theory, and also about the way dialects and (in some cases) languages drift towards languages that may not even be on the same branch in the tree. I have chosen to speak in English, but maybe it should have been in German since both theories have German names.

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Right now I'm revising my Serbian vocabulary while watching TV (without sound) about weird animal friends and listening to virtuoso piano music by the 'great galopping Gottschalk' so I'll not write more right now about my activities since yesterday - maybe later today. I'll just mention that one of the words I have refreshed today was the Serbian word for logbook: бродски дневник ('ship news/diary'). It will take a couple of days to get through the rest of the azbuka.

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Ah. My presentation will probably be multilingual - it's on gender pronouns and particularly the development of new pronouns for non-binary usage (such as Swedish "hen", Esperanto "ri", English use of singular "they", and slightly more confusing developments as in Dutch "hen")
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