Can one calculate comprehension?

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3657
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German, Italian
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian; Romanian, Galician; Danish, Swedish; Estonian
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Czech, Latvian
x 5179
Contact:

Re: Can one calculate comprehension?

Postby Serpent » Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:22 am

This is the previous thread we've had on this. I don't think I have anything else to add ;)
2 x
LyricsTraining now has Finnish and Polish :)
Corrections welcome

User avatar
tastyonions
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1578
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:39 pm
Location: Dallas, TX
Languages: EN (N), FR, ES, DE, IT, PT, NL, EL
x 3878

Re: Can one calculate comprehension?

Postby tastyonions » Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:29 am

Haha, 27 pages already. L'histoire se répète.
2 x

NoManches
Blue Belt
Posts: 654
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:21 pm
Location: Estados Unidos (near the Mexican border)
Languages: English - (N)
Spanish - B2 +
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7942
x 1459

Re: Can one calculate comprehension?

Postby NoManches » Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:34 am

It might be tough (or nearly impossible) to truly measure comprehension, but I think its best to take a step back and see why people are saying things such as "I can understand about 95% of a certain television series". I admit that I quite often use statements like the one I just quoted, but my reason for doing so requires that my comprehension level is some how measurable. For example, I like to watch long television series and track my progress as I log in hours. Maybe my self gauged measurements aren't that accurate, but they give me an idea of where I was at and roughly where I am now. If a year ago I understood "60%" of a television show and now I understand "95%" of that same show, at least I know that I made some type of improvement even if the numbers aren't all that accurate.

I see where you are coming from and you make some great points about how one can understand the words but not the meaning, and I think this solidifies your point that it is hard to measure comprehension. I just think its best to recognize that some people make these measurements as a way of tracking progress and as a way of describing their situation when trying to get help from others. My advice for improving comprehension may vary for somebody who believes they have 60% comprehension VS somebody with 80%, 90%, or 95% comprehension.
4 x
DOUBLE Super Challenge
Spanish Movies
: 10795 / 18000

Spanish Books
: 4415 / 10000

User avatar
tarvos
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:13 am
Location: The Lowlands
Languages: Native: NL, EN
Professional: ES, RU
Speak well: DE, FR, RO, EO, SV
Speak reasonably: IT, ZH, PT, NO, EL, CZ
Need improvement: PO, IS, HE, JP, KO, HU, FI
Passive: AF, DK, LAT
Dabbled in: BRT, ZH (SH), BG, EUS, ZH (CAN), and a whole lot more.
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=1&TPN=1
x 6093
Contact:

Re: Can one calculate comprehension?

Postby tarvos » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:35 am

I'll give my answer that I've given a million times before:

No, but really, does it matter to you when people do it?
1 x
I hope your world is kind.

Is a girl.

s_allard
Blue Belt
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:01 pm
Location: Canada
Languages: French (N), English (N), Spanish (C2 Cert.), German (B2 Cert)
x 2305

Re: Can one calculate comprehension?

Postby s_allard » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:01 pm

NoManches wrote:It might be tough (or nearly impossible) to truly measure comprehension, but I think its best to take a step back and see why people are saying things such as "I can understand about 95% of a certain television series". I admit that I quite often use statements like the one I just quoted, but my reason for doing so requires that my comprehension level is some how measurable. For example, I like to watch long television series and track my progress as I log in hours. Maybe my self gauged measurements aren't that accurate, but they give me an idea of where I was at and roughly where I am now. If a year ago I understood "60%" of a television show and now I understand "95%" of that same show, at least I know that I made some type of improvement even if the numbers aren't all that accurate.

I see where you are coming from and you make some great points about how one can understand the words but not the meaning, and I think this solidifies your point that it is hard to measure comprehension. I just think its best to recognize that some people make these measurements as a way of tracking progress and as a way of describing their situation when trying to get help from others. My advice for improving comprehension may vary for somebody who believes they have 60% comprehension VS somebody with 80%, 90%, or 95% comprehension.

A nice and thoughtful post. I have no issue with people using figures to estimate their understanding, especially at the high levels. In fact, percentages offer a kind of pseudo-precision that feels good. That's actually always the way I have looked at these figures, with a grain of salt. When someone says "I understand 95%" it really means "I think I understand nearly everything". It could be just as well 98.6%, 90% or 88.3%. It's basically a feeling more than science. That's OK because we are not really talking about the science of understanding.

The part I find interesting is more the low end. How can one understand 50% or less of something? I see this often with reference to the so-called cognate discount. Around 30% of English vocabulary comes from French. How much does this actually help with understanding spoken or written French? Could an English-speaker who knows no French understand 20% of a French newspaper?

The same applies for the speaker of French learning Spanish. Given the many similarities between the languages, is the French speaker automatically able to understand 40% of a Spanish newspaper?
0 x

User avatar
Aozora
Orange Belt
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:46 pm
Location: Canada
Languages: English(N), Japanese (N2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17971
x 203

Re: Can one calculate comprehension?

Postby Aozora » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:55 pm

s_allard wrote:
The part I find interesting is more the low end. How can one understand 50% or less of something? I see this often with reference to the so-called cognate discount. Around 30% of English vocabulary comes from French. How much does this actually help with understanding spoken or written French? Could an English-speaker who knows no French understand 20% of a French newspaper?

The same applies for the speaker of French learning Spanish. Given the many similarities between the languages, is the French speaker automatically able to understand 40% of a Spanish newspaper?

Knowing 30% of the words (whether from cognates or not) is very different from understanding 30% of the content, as we already know. Before I started studying French I couldn't understand spoken French at all, but I could read bits and pieces, like phrases on labels and signs. Trying to read a book with no French would be impossible though. Now that I can read French a little, the cognate discount means that a lot of the "new" words I encounter I don't need to look up. That makes reading and studying worlds easier than the same tasks with a distant language like Japanese (if I was at the same level in both languages).

My listening comprehension of native French is at the "bits and pieces" level, but I wouldn't try to put a percentage on it. I can see how it's not very useful to try and estimate comprehension at a low level.
2 x
Super Challenge Books: 14 / 100
Super Challenge Films: 63 / 100

Xmmm
Blue Belt
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:19 am
Languages: ru it tr
x 2221

Re: Can one calculate comprehension?

Postby Xmmm » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:56 pm

s_allard wrote:The part I find interesting is more the low end. How can one understand 50% or less of something?


I don't know, this must be a trick question.

Let's say a TV show consists of two scenes, each one minute long and that's it. I will give the English transcriptions for this show:

Scene 1:

(lots of quite sad music, a couple walks in the park)

A: I love you.
B: That's too bad, because I hate you.


Scene 2:

(lots of loud music as car screeches around on city streets)

A: I cannot believe that yet again that bastard has gotten involved and caused a fiasco. I said last time I was going to slit his gizzard and this time I mean it.
B: Word.


Okay, so I understood 100% of scene number 1, and basically 0% of scene 2. So I say "I understood 50% of this show".

You're saying 50% is wrong? We should use 0% instead? 0% is more accurate? Why?
2 x

Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел

s_allard
Blue Belt
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:01 pm
Location: Canada
Languages: French (N), English (N), Spanish (C2 Cert.), German (B2 Cert)
x 2305

Re: Can one calculate comprehension?

Postby s_allard » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:51 am

Xmmm wrote:
s_allard wrote:The part I find interesting is more the low end. How can one understand 50% or less of something?


I don't know, this must be a trick question.

Let's say a TV show consists of two scenes, each one minute long and that's it. I will give the English transcriptions for this show:
...


Okay, so I understood 100% of scene number 1, and basically 0% of scene 2. So I say "I understood 50% of this show".

You're saying 50% is wrong? We should use 0% instead? 0% is more accurate? Why?

I stand corrected. I have to admit that this sort of calculation makes sense. Right now I'm reading a collection of nine short stories by Marcel Aymé, called Derrière Chez Martin. Let's assume the stories are all the same length. I can read eight without the slightest difficulty. I don't have to look up the least word. All the idioms are crystal clear. The antiquated tense uses are not a problem. But when it comes to the ninth short story, I can't understand a single word. In this case I can say that I understood 89% of the book.

I have to say that I've never encountered a situation like this when it comes to understanding a target language but it may exist. It's hard for me to imagine perfectly understanding the first episode of a TV series and not a single word of the next
nine episodes of the 10-episode season.

What I have always experienced, and I don't think I'm unique, is more like the entire work is a mixture of known and unknown. Some pages or episodes contain more unknown words or meanings and others less. What I'm saying is that below a certain threshold, whatever that is, there's no point reading the book or watching a program other than out of masochism.
1 x

User avatar
leosmith
Brown Belt
Posts: 1341
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv)
French (int)
German (int)
Japanese (int)
Korean (int)
Mandarin (int)
Portuguese (int)
Russian (int)
Swahili (int)
Tagalog (int)
Thai (int)
x 3104
Contact:

Re: Can one calculate comprehension?

Postby leosmith » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:20 am

s_allard wrote:What I'm saying is that below a certain threshold, whatever that is, there's no point reading the book or watching a program other than out of masochism.

Some learners like to do this, so I don't think it's right to say there's no point to it. If graduated (i+1) material was always available, I would probably always use it, but I find myself more aggressively studying harder material when I want to "level up" in languages these days.
1 x
https://languagecrush.com/reading - try our free multi-language reading tool

aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
x 1910

Re: Can one calculate comprehension?

Postby aaleks » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:36 am

s_allard wrote: What I'm saying is that below a certain threshold, whatever that is, there's no point reading the book or watching a program other than out of masochism.

And at the same time it’s an introduction to the language. You see your target language in its natural environment.
1 x


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests