Can one calculate comprehension?
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Re: Can one calculate comprehension?
This is the previous thread we've had on this. I don't think I have anything else to add
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Re: Can one calculate comprehension?
It might be tough (or nearly impossible) to truly measure comprehension, but I think its best to take a step back and see why people are saying things such as "I can understand about 95% of a certain television series". I admit that I quite often use statements like the one I just quoted, but my reason for doing so requires that my comprehension level is some how measurable. For example, I like to watch long television series and track my progress as I log in hours. Maybe my self gauged measurements aren't that accurate, but they give me an idea of where I was at and roughly where I am now. If a year ago I understood "60%" of a television show and now I understand "95%" of that same show, at least I know that I made some type of improvement even if the numbers aren't all that accurate.
I see where you are coming from and you make some great points about how one can understand the words but not the meaning, and I think this solidifies your point that it is hard to measure comprehension. I just think its best to recognize that some people make these measurements as a way of tracking progress and as a way of describing their situation when trying to get help from others. My advice for improving comprehension may vary for somebody who believes they have 60% comprehension VS somebody with 80%, 90%, or 95% comprehension.
I see where you are coming from and you make some great points about how one can understand the words but not the meaning, and I think this solidifies your point that it is hard to measure comprehension. I just think its best to recognize that some people make these measurements as a way of tracking progress and as a way of describing their situation when trying to get help from others. My advice for improving comprehension may vary for somebody who believes they have 60% comprehension VS somebody with 80%, 90%, or 95% comprehension.
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Re: Can one calculate comprehension?
I'll give my answer that I've given a million times before:
No, but really, does it matter to you when people do it?
No, but really, does it matter to you when people do it?
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Re: Can one calculate comprehension?
NoManches wrote:It might be tough (or nearly impossible) to truly measure comprehension, but I think its best to take a step back and see why people are saying things such as "I can understand about 95% of a certain television series". I admit that I quite often use statements like the one I just quoted, but my reason for doing so requires that my comprehension level is some how measurable. For example, I like to watch long television series and track my progress as I log in hours. Maybe my self gauged measurements aren't that accurate, but they give me an idea of where I was at and roughly where I am now. If a year ago I understood "60%" of a television show and now I understand "95%" of that same show, at least I know that I made some type of improvement even if the numbers aren't all that accurate.
I see where you are coming from and you make some great points about how one can understand the words but not the meaning, and I think this solidifies your point that it is hard to measure comprehension. I just think its best to recognize that some people make these measurements as a way of tracking progress and as a way of describing their situation when trying to get help from others. My advice for improving comprehension may vary for somebody who believes they have 60% comprehension VS somebody with 80%, 90%, or 95% comprehension.
A nice and thoughtful post. I have no issue with people using figures to estimate their understanding, especially at the high levels. In fact, percentages offer a kind of pseudo-precision that feels good. That's actually always the way I have looked at these figures, with a grain of salt. When someone says "I understand 95%" it really means "I think I understand nearly everything". It could be just as well 98.6%, 90% or 88.3%. It's basically a feeling more than science. That's OK because we are not really talking about the science of understanding.
The part I find interesting is more the low end. How can one understand 50% or less of something? I see this often with reference to the so-called cognate discount. Around 30% of English vocabulary comes from French. How much does this actually help with understanding spoken or written French? Could an English-speaker who knows no French understand 20% of a French newspaper?
The same applies for the speaker of French learning Spanish. Given the many similarities between the languages, is the French speaker automatically able to understand 40% of a Spanish newspaper?
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Re: Can one calculate comprehension?
s_allard wrote:
The part I find interesting is more the low end. How can one understand 50% or less of something? I see this often with reference to the so-called cognate discount. Around 30% of English vocabulary comes from French. How much does this actually help with understanding spoken or written French? Could an English-speaker who knows no French understand 20% of a French newspaper?
The same applies for the speaker of French learning Spanish. Given the many similarities between the languages, is the French speaker automatically able to understand 40% of a Spanish newspaper?
Knowing 30% of the words (whether from cognates or not) is very different from understanding 30% of the content, as we already know. Before I started studying French I couldn't understand spoken French at all, but I could read bits and pieces, like phrases on labels and signs. Trying to read a book with no French would be impossible though. Now that I can read French a little, the cognate discount means that a lot of the "new" words I encounter I don't need to look up. That makes reading and studying worlds easier than the same tasks with a distant language like Japanese (if I was at the same level in both languages).
My listening comprehension of native French is at the "bits and pieces" level, but I wouldn't try to put a percentage on it. I can see how it's not very useful to try and estimate comprehension at a low level.
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Re: Can one calculate comprehension?
s_allard wrote:The part I find interesting is more the low end. How can one understand 50% or less of something?
I don't know, this must be a trick question.
Let's say a TV show consists of two scenes, each one minute long and that's it. I will give the English transcriptions for this show:
Scene 1:
(lots of quite sad music, a couple walks in the park)
A: I love you.
B: That's too bad, because I hate you.
Scene 2:
(lots of loud music as car screeches around on city streets)
A: I cannot believe that yet again that bastard has gotten involved and caused a fiasco. I said last time I was going to slit his gizzard and this time I mean it.
B: Word.
Okay, so I understood 100% of scene number 1, and basically 0% of scene 2. So I say "I understood 50% of this show".
You're saying 50% is wrong? We should use 0% instead? 0% is more accurate? Why?
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Re: Can one calculate comprehension?
Xmmm wrote:s_allard wrote:The part I find interesting is more the low end. How can one understand 50% or less of something?
I don't know, this must be a trick question.
Let's say a TV show consists of two scenes, each one minute long and that's it. I will give the English transcriptions for this show:
...
Okay, so I understood 100% of scene number 1, and basically 0% of scene 2. So I say "I understood 50% of this show".
You're saying 50% is wrong? We should use 0% instead? 0% is more accurate? Why?
I stand corrected. I have to admit that this sort of calculation makes sense. Right now I'm reading a collection of nine short stories by Marcel Aymé, called Derrière Chez Martin. Let's assume the stories are all the same length. I can read eight without the slightest difficulty. I don't have to look up the least word. All the idioms are crystal clear. The antiquated tense uses are not a problem. But when it comes to the ninth short story, I can't understand a single word. In this case I can say that I understood 89% of the book.
I have to say that I've never encountered a situation like this when it comes to understanding a target language but it may exist. It's hard for me to imagine perfectly understanding the first episode of a TV series and not a single word of the next
nine episodes of the 10-episode season.
What I have always experienced, and I don't think I'm unique, is more like the entire work is a mixture of known and unknown. Some pages or episodes contain more unknown words or meanings and others less. What I'm saying is that below a certain threshold, whatever that is, there's no point reading the book or watching a program other than out of masochism.
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Re: Can one calculate comprehension?
s_allard wrote:What I'm saying is that below a certain threshold, whatever that is, there's no point reading the book or watching a program other than out of masochism.
Some learners like to do this, so I don't think it's right to say there's no point to it. If graduated (i+1) material was always available, I would probably always use it, but I find myself more aggressively studying harder material when I want to "level up" in languages these days.
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Re: Can one calculate comprehension?
s_allard wrote: What I'm saying is that below a certain threshold, whatever that is, there's no point reading the book or watching a program other than out of masochism.
And at the same time it’s an introduction to the language. You see your target language in its natural environment.
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