Writing

General discussion about learning languages
nooj
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Writing

Postby nooj » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:33 pm

How do you approach writing in your target language?

Do you write.it in your native language (s) first before translating it into your target one? Do you write it in your target one first? This is what i do, but i wonder really if this is more beneficial than the other one.

What kind of writing do you do?
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aaleks
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Re: Writing

Postby aaleks » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:10 pm

Since I'm doing it right now… :roll:
I write it in my target language (English) without any translating back and forth, or at least I think I do. Maybe it’s just a mix of Russian and English. Either way, if I can’t formulate some thought in English I usually can’t do it in Russian either. If I try to do it my brain will stuck in the middle between two languages and then go blank.
The thing with Russian and English is that the languages are too different and writing first in Russian just will make the task even more complicated, at least to me. I doubt that writing in NT first is going to help me to make my writing not as awkward as it is now. Moreover, I think it could make things only worth.
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astromule
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Re: Writing

Postby astromule » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:33 pm

What I have began doing recently is to write a post concerning an article or video in a certain language. For example, if I want to share an Italian opera in Facebook, I write the paragraph in Italian first, then Spanish and English, too, so my Facebook friends can understand what's all about. But it depends on the language. Many times I begin writing in Spanish and then translate. I try to write short paragraphs, so I can keep it up more or less daily. I'm also recording my pronunciation. Example: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=794&start=240#p71143

In my log here I don't post the English and Spanish translations nor the videos or original articles, so I can keep the log cleaner and simpler.
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tarvos
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Re: Writing

Postby tarvos » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:46 pm

I write directly in my TL and barely translate. I usually have extended sessions with iTalki teachers focused on improving my writing, such as for Czech, French, Spanish and Russian. I've also done it for Romanian but not for many of the others.
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Iversen
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Re: Writing

Postby Iversen » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:45 pm

I write my contributions here in the intended language, but in some cases first as an alpha (in Word) or beta (in the forum) version, and then I look things up to make the final version. Considering the number of errors I make in some languages I should probably do this for ALL texts in those languages, but that would of course take longer time, and I'm sometimes too lazy or too eager to get on to other tasks. On the other hand: even if a text in principle is reasonably OK I often can't resist the temptation to revise it, sometimes with the result that I introduce new errors.
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the1whoknocks
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Re: Writing

Postby the1whoknocks » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:38 am

It usually depends on what my aim is but here are a few ways I approach writing:

1. I’ll write in my L1 first, and try to say that naturally in my L2. It’s been a while since I’ve practiced like this since writing in both languages just takes more time than I’d like sometimes and because I’m able to write directly in my L2 now. I started off this way so that I’d have an L1 version that people on italki or Lang-8 could reference while offering suggestions on what I wrote in my L2.

2. Write for time. Usually, the idea here is to focus more on getting my thoughts down on paper than accuracy. Here, the emphasis is on speed and I don’t write for more than 3 or 5 minutes at a time.

3. Writing at a ‘normal’ pace, directly in my L2, without editing. I’ll just write, and then review what I wrote at the end. Much like I might in my L1. I usually just do this.

4. Write directly in my L2, but edit as I write. Look the whole thing over, and then do a final edit. Slowest of all the methods, but here the focus is usually saying precisely what I want to say, without compromise. If I can’t think of something, I’ll get the help of an exchange partner or Linguee. I don’t write this way as often as I should.

5. Start with a list of words/ phrases, all in my L2, on a topic I plan to write I about. I’ll start by writing in my L2, while looking for opportunities to incorporate the words on this list into my writing.

6. Technically, this doesn't count as a 'way' but, often Ill review whatever I wrote a day, or a few days, later before asking someone else to take a look at it.
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neofight78
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Re: Writing

Postby neofight78 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:50 am

tarvos wrote:I usually have extended sessions with iTalki teachers focused on improving my writing, such as for Czech, French, Spanish and Russian.


Interesting, I normally think of iTalki sessions being for speaking practice. What do these sessions look like, what kind of things do you cover and how etc?
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tarvos
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Re: Writing

Postby tarvos » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:30 am

I'll copy what I wrote in my log:

All of these things can happen. It depends on the tutor and also on what you ask them to do. It also hugely depends on your level.

What is most important for me is not that I get corrected, but that I get the appropriate type of corrections - depending on my level. You see, I'm not always at the same level and for example in Spanish I can usually second-guess any corrections that I get because my level is high enough that errors are few and usually more a mark of sloppiness than inability.

The important criteria for a writing tutor and dedicated sessions are the following:

1. The choice of tutor is critical. You want them to catch every last detail. They should never go easy on you and they shouldn't let you off the hook. I love it when my tutors don't compliment me but push me harder. That's the way forward. And eventually you'll get compliments just because your level has become so impressive there's very little to correct.

2. At lower levels you may need explanations. If you're at C1 or C2, often you won't need them - then having the corrections being marked and thinking about them yourself will really help. You can see improvement within just a couple sessions this way - I went from quite convoluted writing in Czech to very well-structured sentences in a few months.

3. You should pick subjects that challenge you a bit to use vocabulary out of your way, or set a goal that you're not allowed to look up words in a dictionary. I tend to write my articles in the space of an hour or so (yes! sometimes even less!) and I rarely if at all look up words, just so I know that my production is automatically correct. I don't make my articles too long either, so when I write, they're about a page A4 each, and they usually have the following structure:

one paragraph introduction

2-4 paragraphs content/argument

one paragraph conclusion.

In this way I can also ensure that I am writing a coherent text. Usually my texts tend to be argumentative and not descriptive, but I've experimented with more informative texts in order to change style (because register can also be an issue).

4. If the language you speak is Romance, you want to practice texts with a lot of subjective value judgements because it will force you to practice the very necessary subjunctive tense. And if you're working with French the format of texts is quite convoluted and standardized, so you want to pay extra attention there.

5. Writing is a skill, and what really helps is knowing all the linking words that allow you to enumerate, express cause and effect, and also know 50 different ways of saying each of those things so you don't repeat yourself over and over again. The first language I learned to do this in was English, but think of it this way: if you're speaking Spanish, can you think of five ways of expressing contrast without using "pero"?

6. I use a spellchecker to get rid of stupid errors with diacritics and such. We live in the 21st century - let's use technology to our advantage. If you'd use it in an office situation you can use it here. You should be able to use dictionaries unless you're preparing for the exam situations. I sometimes don't just to check whether I can come up with a good article without needing them. (I usually can!)
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neofight78
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Re: Writing

Postby neofight78 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:14 am

tarvos wrote:I'll copy what I wrote in my log:


Ah, yes. Just seen your post there. :oops:

tarvos wrote:1. The choice of tutor is critical. You want them to catch every last detail. They should never go easy on you and they shouldn't let you off the hook. I love it when my tutors don't compliment me but push me harder. That's the way forward. And eventually you'll get compliments just because your level has become so impressive there's very little to correct.


This is super critical, even at B2 people say my Russian is really great, and despite saying corrections are important to me I get hardly any. I notice more mistakes than they give corrections which is not a good sign! Admittedly I'm talking about speaking practice rather than writing here. If anyone wants to PM any good Russian tutor recommendations bearing in mind the above point I'd be most grateful! (On any site not just italki)

I'm still not quite clear on how a session would run. How much writing do you get corrected in a lesson? Does it really take a full 30 minutes / hour to go through them all? I've always worked on the basis of emailing of a text and getting a correct text back (if I'm working with a tutor). Maybe I'll ask a question if there are some corrections that I don't understand, although that's usually not many if any. What does an full tutoring session give you over this? I'm interested to know, perhaps I am missing out on something :)
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tarvos
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Re: Writing

Postby tarvos » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:35 am

neofight78 wrote:
tarvos wrote:I'll copy what I wrote in my log:


Ah, yes. Just seen your post there. :oops:

tarvos wrote:1. The choice of tutor is critical. You want them to catch every last detail. They should never go easy on you and they shouldn't let you off the hook. I love it when my tutors don't compliment me but push me harder. That's the way forward. And eventually you'll get compliments just because your level has become so impressive there's very little to correct.


This is super critical, even at B2 people say my Russian is really great, and despite saying corrections are important to me I get hardly any. I notice more mistakes than they give corrections which is not a good sign! Admittedly I'm talking about speaking practice rather than writing here. If anyone wants to PM any good Russian tutor recommendations bearing in mind the above point I'd be most grateful! (On any site not just italki)

I'm still not quite clear on how a session would run. How much writing do you get corrected in a lesson? Does it really take a full 30 minutes / hour to go through them all? I've always worked on the basis of emailing of a text and getting a correct text back (if I'm working with a tutor). Maybe I'll ask a question if there are some corrections that I don't understand, although that's usually not many if any. What does an full tutoring session give you over this? I'm interested to know, perhaps I am missing out on something :)



It can take that long, yes, because we correct every minute mistake and talk through the errors.
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