How do you treat different dialects and accents in your TL?

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NoManches
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How do you treat different dialects and accents in your TL?

Postby NoManches » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:03 pm

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but most likely not in great depth.

I just finished watching Ingobernable and the second season of Club de Cuervos, 2 telenovelas that take place in Mexico. I don't have a huge problem understanding the Mexican actors in these shows, but the ones from Spain and Argentina have been giving me some trouble. Usually when a non Mexican actor is speaking I try my hardest to hear what they are saying, or maybe I'll turn the subtitles on if it seems like something important.

If I had to take an educated guess, I'd say that in the 4-5 years that I've been studying Spanish 90% of my interactions have been with Mexicans, with the other 10% mixed between Spaniards, Colombians, and Chileans. It should be noted that the accents and slang from Spain, Colombia, and Chile can be quite different from Mexican Spanish. I don't feel too pressed to expose myself to Spanish from places other than Mexico because my interactions with non Mexicans is pretty low. However, if I went to Cuba or Spain tomorrow I'd have a lot of trouble understanding everyone around me. But, if I went to Mexico I'd feel pretty comfortable for the most part.

I suppose I've already made the decision to jut ignore non-Mexican Spanish for the time being. I feel like my time is better spent preparing myself for a likely encounter with a Mexican rather than a Spaniard, Peruvian, etc.

I'm curious to see how others feel about this. Am I the only one who sort of ignores other accents? I do feel a bit guilty and one day would like to be a master of the language and all the different accents, but I don't see a huge benefit from dedicating time to other accents in my TL. What are your thoughts on this?
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Re: How do you treat different dialects and accents in your TL?

Postby tarvos » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:17 pm

I deal with the other accents in as far as that is necessary. I don't really need to listen to québécois much, but when I do, I know that I have to adapt to their French (and they to my Dutch-Belgo-Francophone mix). The idea is that when you get to an advanced level, these dialectal differences will gradually become easier on the ear and will simply require a bit of time to adapt to - the same as what happens to me when I encounter Latin American speakers of Spanish, because my Spanish is definitely oriented on that of Spain (because I lived there).

It's not a problem to ignore them mostly, because if you don't need them, you won't hear them so much - and a lot of natives may have trouble with their accents and vocabulary too! Just take it as it comes. I like to expose myself to the various variants of my target languages - particularly because many of them have such variants - but only superficially, as I won't really need to get in-depth unless I am planning to spend time in that particular area. That's why my Spanish is predominantly European - that's where I learned it - and I've also got a Mexican friend I speak to, so there's some Mexican Spanish in there. The point is, should you need Rioplatense or Colombian - it will come when you need it. The switch honestly isn't that big.

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Re: How do you treat different dialects and accents in your TL?

Postby emk » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:26 pm

NoManches wrote:I'm curious to see how others feel about this. Am I the only one who sort of ignores other accents? I do feel a bit guilty and one day would like to be a master of the language and all the different accents, but I don't see a huge benefit from dedicating time to other accents in my TL. What are your thoughts on this?

French is a bit different than Spanish, because of the immense cultural dominance of France and the "neutral" French accent. Sure, there are tons of French speakers elsewhere, but:

  • African French speakers often speak French pretty well, but they often speak at as a second (or third, or fourth) language. This tends to mean that even if they have an accent, they'll often compensate by speaking slower and clearer.
  • Quebec French can be a pretty distinct dialect. But in a shop, or in a professional context, people will tend to speak something closer to European French, especially if there are non-native speakers around.
Personally, I found French in Montreal almost incomprehensible up through at least B2. But about a year afterwards, when I had my big listening breakthrough—when I realized I could more-or-less channel surf French TV and understand at least 50% of the shows right off the bat—I also found that I started understanding people in Montreal. And I never put any serious effort into studying the dialect.

So for at least some languages, my instinct would be to say to keep working on whatever dialect you have the most use for, and to get to the point where you're pretty good at watching TV, and maybe you'll get lucky and be able to understand other regional accents.
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Re: How do you treat different dialects and accents in your TL?

Postby nooj » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:16 pm

I lived in spain and so put a lot of effort into the local variety of spanish around me, specific to madrid or recognisable as such.

Not just vocabulary but pronunciation (ej que instead of es que is a notorious example) and syntax, so leismo and even laismo sometimes.

At the same time i was being exposed to other varieties of spanish. From Cataluña, from Galicia, from el país vasco, from valencia, from León...the dialectical variety in spain itself is impressive. I didnt try to consciously imitate them, but the important thing was to expose myself to them and thereby understand words, expressions and ways of speaking. This is i think at least the minimum that can be asked of speakers vis a vis other varieties of their language. At the same time there are quite a lot of americans in spain, so i was exposing myself to cuban, puerto rican, venezuelan, colombian, chilean...the important thing is not to imitate, but at least to understand. of course when speakers of different varieties meet, accomodation does take place, usually from the less prestigious to the more prestigious, but that doesnt completely obviate the practical necessity or moral appropriateness (?) of accomodating from both sides. You cant expect everyone you meet in mexico to accomodate to your spanish you learned in chile and thus speak a 'neutral spanish', and i dont think it would be fair to insist that they do, when you yourself dont.

For example it behooves an american (from the united states) to at least learn something about how people from glasgow speak if they're going to go there...

Now that said, when i travelled through Andalucía, i went a step farther and actively started incorporating the way they spoke into how i spoke. Not out of mockery, but because andaluces liked it when i spoke like them more, and i wanted to come closer to them because i liked them. Adopting andaluz vocabulary and pronunciation (depending on the region i was passing through) was my way of showing appréciation...
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Re: How do you treat different dialects and accents in your TL?

Postby blaurebell » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:14 am

I actually struggled a bit with different dialects myself in Spanish, because I made a bit of a mistake in the beginning by jumping between dialects too much. The biggest problem for me weren't the accents themselves, but the vocabulary:

If you look at this list you will see that the regional differences in vocabulary are huge - especially core vocabulary of the most common words like car or t-shirt.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Dif ... ohablantes
This explains why my husband, who's from Argentina, is often reduced to pointing at things or describing them when he asks for things in shops in Spain. It also means that if you read books from Argentina, from Spain, from Cuba, from Mexico you might have to learn your core vocabulary over and over which distracts from learning low frequency words. I probably learned core vocabulary 3-4 times over just because I didn't restrict myself to literature from one specific region. It makes more sense to stick to one region for a while and then expand your regional interests systematically or you will feel like you're in a hamster wheel of core vocabulary. Although of course the accents can be quite different too, in my experience the three big movie industries - Spain, Mexico and Argentina - are a good place to start with accents, since covering all three is enough to understand most Spanish speakers. Nevertheless even after more than 700h of TV in different accents I occasionally run into a speaker I don't understand - I recently watched a Chilean film where two lines felt like a different language - but it's not as if I understand thick Scottish accents either.

The way I approached the accents in general was to first watch about 50-50 latino and Spanish dubs - about 400h -, then expand into Argentinian and Iberian native content, since those are the accents I need most - I live in Spain and my husband is Argentinian. I already watched quite a lot of proper native content before, but I'm right now in the middle of another double SC watching Iberian and Argentinian native series and movies. Afterwards I will do another SC to cover Mexican content and probably another mixed one with movies from all over Latin America. Covering accents systematically also helps rather well to deal with speakers who mumble a lot or scenes where people speak with their mouth full, drunk or being otherwise incapacitated.

In general I think it's a good idea to stick with one accent / dialect first so as not to learn core vocabulary over and over. At some point expanding into different accents is beneficial and interesting though. That said it's sometimes tough to find good content to get past the initial :?: Series are the best for that. I personally find Argentinian series much better in comparison to Iberian Spanish series - most are unbearable really - and of course Mexican telenovelas invented the whole "evil twin brother who disappeared shortly after birth and returns to take revenge" style of bad writing. Basically, Argentinian series are the only ones I find really enjoyable. However, some movies from Spain aren't half bad and there are many great movies from Argentina that would be a shame to miss! Watching one or two bad series to have less problems with regional movies is usually a worthwhile investment.

The most difficult part in general is local slang. Every region has their own and you'll find most of it in comics - often hard to get outside the country -, local police series or series with teenagers - the latter are usually awful due to atrocious acting. Personally I don't think there is any point in learning local slang unless you have a real connection to the region, so I probably won't be watching Colombian police series unless I run out of other stuff to watch. If you want to see how extreme local slang can get, have a look at the Argentinian movie Nueve Reinas. Even my husband only understands half the slang in this one! Nevertheless the movie is one of the examples of really good Argentinian cinema.
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Re: How do you treat different dialects and accents in your TL?

Postby Iversen » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:13 pm

I don't really try to stick to a single dialect - in the case of Scots and Platt I treat them as languages and in all other cases I simply mix them. The reason is that my input is mixed and I cannot (nor intend to) change that situation.
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Re: How do you treat different dialects and accents in your TL?

Postby YtownPolyglot » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:38 pm

I'm learning Portuguese and the learning materials available to me are almost entirely Brazilian Portuguese, not Continental Portuguese. I plan to wait until I feel more comfortable with the Brazilian variety before I start looking for the other varieties.
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Re: How do you treat different dialects and accents in your TL?

Postby iguanamon » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:09 pm

Almost all languages have dialects and accents. For pluri-centric languages like Spanish and Portuguese, there's a macro level and a micro level. With Spanish, there's Castilian and Latin American on a macro level. On a more micro level there's Mexican, Central American, Caribbean, Rio Platense, etc. From there we can drill further down to Chilango (Mexico City) New Mexican (US), Puerto Rcian, Cuban, Canary Islands, Madrilense, Extremaduran, Andalucian, etc., etc. Portuguese is similar with Iberian, African and Brazilian. Drilling down we get Alentejano, Carioca, Gaucho, Paulista, Nordestino, Angolano, Moçambicano, Cabo Verdeano, etc.

What's a learner to do? I think it's important to concentrate on one variety and learn it on a macro level first. The better one becomes with a language on a macro level, the easier it becomes to familiarize one's self with other varieties on a more micro level through exposure. As to what to speak, just speak the variety you have learned as well as you can. When I'm in Spain, people know I haven't learned Iberian Spanish. It's never been a problem in my being understood- I do try to remember to modify my Spanish somewhat so I don't ask where the guagua (bus) stops or for a jugo de china (orange juice) to drink. I don't use vosotros or a Castilian lisp.

In Portugal, I never had a problem speaking Brazilian Portuguese. I had been exposed to Iberian/African Portuguese on a regular basis before and soon had my ear tuned into what I was hearing in response. People knew I wasn't Brazilian (I can't hide my Anglo looks in Latin lands) but I did get asked occasionally how long I'd lived in Brazil (never). The better you know a language the better you can deal with its varieties, especially if you make an effort. You do have to make the effort though, it's still not going to just fall into your lap.

YtownPolyglot- I used plenty of Iberian/African Portuguese resources when learning Portuguese and concentrating on Brazilian Portuguese- DW Português Para África Learning By Ear Radionovelas and the Centro Virtual Camões are just two resources, for example. At least that's how I dealt with it.
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Re: How do you treat different dialects and accents in your TL?

Postby SophiaMerlin_II » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:40 pm

I think the time when one should start expanding out into different dialects and accents on purpose is when one can hear someone talking and tell that it is in fact a different dialect or accent.

Otherwise, you end up with the sort of problem that I have in my T1, English. I was exposed to a lot of accents all throughout my childhood up to current. When I hear Americans, Canadians, British, Scottish, Irish, and probably Welsh as well, I usually don't notice honestly unless it's pretty thick because I am just... used to it.

I am from the US South, born into a family where both parents have traveled quite a bit domestically and my mother even spent a while in Germany, but never-the-less, born and raised in the South. Growing up in Georgia and Texas you'd think I have a Southern Accent, but I don't. At least not anymore. I did as a kid, but in high school, I watched so much BBC, with so much Scottish accent, that it literally changed the way I talk... now I apparently sound Canadian. Because Texas+Scotland = Manitoba apparently...

BUT despite my "Canadian" accent, I still use gramatical constructions that are Southern "y'all", unusual "cola", and otherwise all over the place "go to grocery", and sometimes I forget which words "we" use and accidentally use the British equivalent (nappies, pram, trainers, rubbers, etc, etc) which was not helped by the fact that my Spanish textbooks, in all 4 years of highschool were made in UK and I constantly had to translate the British into American English...

Off topic but, back to the point I was trying to make which is: Make sure you have a firm grasp on whatever variety you want to consider "yours" before you venture into other vocabulary, constructions, and pronunciations because otherwise you may end up in a situation where you use vocabulary from one, constructions from another, and pronunciations for a third. People will probably understand you, but they'll probably look at you just as weird as they do when I say, "Y'all put on your trainers, we've to the grocery" in a "Canadian" accent.
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Re: How do you treat different dialects and accents in your TL?

Postby aokoye » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:29 pm

So my main TL is German. My answer would be somewhat different if was Norwegian and very different it was Arabic. That said I recognize that German has a ton of dialects, fully realize that I will run into a lot of them, and realize that I'm going to have to understand them if I want to communicate or understand the speaker. I don't shy away from media because of the dialect that is being used nor do I prefer various sources media because of the dialect being used. I only tailor my speaking to dialects if I'm living in a place where the dialect is spoken and it's an issue of vocabulary and to an extent phonology (though the phonology bit is more unconcious).

For whatever reason I don't have very many issues understanding different German dialects (I know a bunch of people who do despite their advanced German skills, have more trouble than I do). I'll be in Berlin and Vienna this summer. I suspect that the primary thing that will change when I'm in Vienna (after spending four weeks in Berlin) is the words I use for different foods and perhaps my accent though I doubt I'll be there for long enough for that to change.
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