The necessary hours to get to B2

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Hugo
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The necessary hours to get to B2

Postby Hugo » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:14 pm

I have been through both French In Action and Assimil NFWE, first wave. I am pretty diligent in my study with native materials found on YouTube and the study of grammar. So far I have about 1200 hours (plus high school-2 yrs.) invested in my learning of French.

FSI suggests that 800 hours is the amount of time necessary for getting to "mastery."

Could any of the professional polyglots around here tell me if 3,000-5,000 hours is a more reasonable amount of time for getting to B2 in my French?

Thanks.
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NoManches
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Re: The necessary hours to get to B2

Postby NoManches » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:22 pm

I'm not a polyglot but I will try to answer anyway. Also, I have never tested to see if I am a B2, although I consider myself to be this level. In college I did have an interview in order to be placed into an advanced Spanish class for heritage speakers, and the lady I interviewed with had absolutely no problem letting me into that class based on my level at the time.

What it took me to get to a B2 level:

4 separate class in college: Spanish 101, 102, 201, and a 300+ course (for heritage speakers).

200 hours

2.5-3.5 hours of 1 on 1 time each week with 2 separate tutors for approximately 1-1.5 years:

180 hours This is on the lower end, it is probably a lot higher

3 separate university projects that I did in Mexico, each varying in time:

estimated: 100+ hours (again, the real number has got to be much higher).

Italki practice (aka skype practice over the course of 18 months):

roughly 60 hours

Also, I forgot to add the 188 hours of television I've watched on Netflix, which I recalculated this morning because I hadn't accounted for everything.

That comes out to about 728 hours...

but only accounts for things I can measure (Netflix history, completed lessons on iTalki, counting the hours of college classes I've taken, etc.)

Not included is hundreds of hours of practice with friends, constant travel to Mexico (to the point that Border Patrol asks me why I go to Mexico so often), many hours spent listening to music and podcasts. Dozens and dozens of hours watching videos on YouTube and "normal" television, plus hundreds of hours reading in Spanish (being a slow reader adds to this time :roll: ). Plus, I used to spend a ton of time texting friends in Spanish and I had dedicated language exchange partners who I would Skype with for a few hours each week (but I don't have time for that anymore).

I don't even want to think about the hundreds (easily hundreds) of hours I spent reviewing vocabulary on anki :roll:

I should also mention that 10+ years ago I took about 2-3 Spanish classes in High School. I barely remembered anything when I started to learn again as an adult, although everything came back to me a lot quicker than if I were starting from scratch.

Not sure if these numbers gave you any type of answer, but if you have 1200 hours of dedicated French time and 2+ years of French in high school then I would assume that you are a strong B2 if not very close to being a C1. Am I correct? I see that your profile says "French A1" but I don't think that is accurate.
Last edited by NoManches on Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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James29
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Re: The necessary hours to get to B2

Postby James29 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:10 pm

3000-5000 hours should be plenty to get someone to C1. 3000 hours is an hour a day for more than 8 years.
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Hugo
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Re: The necessary hours to get to B2

Postby Hugo » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:50 pm

800 hrs/year is what I put in last year which was the result of having done 2-3 hrs/day 6 days/week.

I totally agree with Peter Mollenburg that the FSI 800 hrs. is not sufficient amount of time and way off the mark.

IMO.
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tastyonions
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Re: The necessary hours to get to B2

Postby tastyonions » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:59 pm

This comes up time and time again. The hour estimates are almost always for "class hours," not taking into account whatever work the students do outside of class. Probably at least a couple hours per night of review in the case of FSI. Saying "I spent one hour per day for two years, that's 730 hours. I should be almost B2 now!" is not the way the FSI estimates were intended to be used.
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Re: The necessary hours to get to B2

Postby reineke » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:15 am

The Foreign Service Institute (FSI) - the U.S. government’s foreign affairs training provider.
The FSI difficulty scale refers to "class hours to achieve goals" .
For French and other Romance languages the estimated number of class hour is 575-600 and the expected homework load is around 360 hours for a grand total of around 960 hours for the two skills.

"The goal of language training for FSI students is typically General Professional Proficiency in Speaking and Reading (3/3+). This level is approximately equivalent to "Superior" on the scale used by the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages. Fsi students are assumed to have very good or better aptitude for classroom learning of foreign language. Less skilled language learners typically take longer.

The FSI difficulty scale is inappropriate for the average international language learner. It is also inappropriate for your average English speaker. The "average" language learner does not fit the profile of an FSI student. Such learners also usually test/self evaluate all the four skills. Using the CEFR levels in connection with the FSI scale is unnecessary and misleading.

The Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) is an international standard for describing language ability.

The Association of Language Testers of Europe (ALTE) has provided a reference for the approximate total number of guided teaching hours that language learners would need to have been exposed to in order to fulfill the aims of each CEFR level. This table is usually seen in reference with English proficiency exams. I have also seen these ALTE figures used in connection with other European languages.

A1 = 90-100 hours
A2 = 180-200 hours
B1 = 350-400 hours
B2 = 500-600 hours
C1 = 700-800 hours
C2 = Mastery: 1000-1200 hours

The AF and other cultural organizations like the Goethe may have custom scales that have slightly fewer tuition hours than the scale above.

For completeness let me mention some estimates from the book CEFR in practice.

Takala (2010) estimates B2 at 1000 hours and C1 at 3000 hours. "Not anybody can get to C2 in German in 1,000, 2000, or even 3,000 hours."

Immigration
The linguistic integration of adult migrants.
(actual document title)

Hours allocated to training

Quebec
Less than 8 years of schooling: 1200 hours to reach A2. 8+ years of schooling : 1000 hours to reach B1/B2
Generous.

Ireland 1000 hours to reach B1
Austria expects learners to reach A2 in 300 hours + 75 hours for literacy training
Germany: 630 hours for B1
Netherlands A2 in 600 hours
France A1: 350 hours for people with little to no schooling
Last edited by reineke on Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The necessary hours to get to B2

Postby smallwhite » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:45 am

What target language do those numbers refer to? I assume French but there's mention of German and France.
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Re: The necessary hours to get to B2

Postby reineke » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:46 am

Germans will not train immigrants in French.
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smallwhite
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Re: The necessary hours to get to B2

Postby smallwhite » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:07 am

reineke wrote:Germans will not train immigrants in French.

I see. So these numbers from ALTE, E for Europe, are for any European language? -

"C2 = Mastery: 1000-1200 hours"

For completeness let me mention some estimates from the book CEFR in practice.

Takala (2010) estimates B2 at 1000 hours and C1 at 3000 hours. "Not anybody can get to C2 in German in 1,000, 2000, or even 3,000 hours."


And is "B2 at 1000 hours" for any European language, French or German?
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Re: The necessary hours to get to B2

Postby reineke » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:51 am

Those ALTE numbers are most often mentioned in connection with different Cambridge exams. However I have also seen the same estimates in connection with CEF levels.

Inlingua has a nice table that compares different standards and includes recommended hours of self-study. A course can be constructed so that the total number of hours (including self-study) corresponds to the ALTE table.

CEFR

"Although mostly used to describe abilities among learners of European languages, a comprehensive mapping with other international standards (Asian languages for instance) is available.

http://www.inlingua.edu.sg/student-info ... ages-(cefr)
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