Does early speaking lead to fossilized mistakes?

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Re: Does early speaking lead to fossilized mistakes?

Postby aaleks » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:28 am

s_allard wrote:In the case of English the majority of these mistakes are words that are confused because they sound alike.


I think in case with my native tongue the cause is different. The most common mistakes are: класть/ложить, одеть/надеть, a wrong stress, etc.
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Re: Does early speaking lead to fossilized mistakes?

Postby s_allard » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:01 pm

I'll leave the theoretical debate over the definition and theory of fossilization to those who are more educated, intelligent and intellectual than I am. Instead, I like to concentrate on the subject of the thread and down-to-earth examples.

My contention is that early speaking has nothing to do with so-called fossilized mistakes; the real cause is lack of correction and imperfect understanding of the target language systems. This is nothing new or really surprising but I think that independent learners like many of us should pay special attention to this issue.

Although some academics get all worked up about the term fossilization, I believe it is just a fancy word for bad habits.

I'd like to give an example how such bad habits or fossilized mistakes can develop in learners of French and why this has nothing to do with starting to speak early or late - whenever that is. For this I want to look at the problem of learning how to pronounce the French liaison.

The starting point is the observation that in French written consonants at the ends of words are mostly not pronounced. For example: vois, voit, voie, voies, voient, voix individually all sound exactly the same. This is the very opposite of languages like Spanish and English. We see this in: la maison - les maisons; la casa - las casas; the house - the houses.

Right off the bat we see that in English the sounded ending of the noun gives us the key information of plurality. In French the written s does not have to be sounded because plurality is indicated by the determinant article les. This obviously has major implications that will reverberate through out the grammars of both languages. Not surprisingly we note that English-speaking learners of French will have tend to pronounce the consonants at the end of French words. For exactly a similar reason, French-speakers learning English will tend to not pronounce the consonants at the end of words.

In French, things take a very complicated turn because of something called liaison - there are also contractions that I'll skip here. The basic idea is that when a word ending in a written consonant is immediately followed by a word that starts with a vowel, that consonant will be pronounced to connect with the following vowel. For example, whereas in les maisons the s in les is not pronounced, in les enfants, we hear les-z-enfants. We'll also hear it in des efforts utiles that will sound like des-z-efforts-z-utiles.

In reality, it's not as simple as that. As the native speakers of French will quickly point out, there are three types of liaison:
1 - mandatory liaisons
2 - prohibited liaisons
3 - optional liaisons that depend usually on the formality of the context

I won't attempt to explain how this works. For our purposes what is important is that this area is a something of a nightmare for learners of French, especially for speakers of English. Learners all make mistakes when attempting to speak French. The problem is how these mistakes are corrected. While we can probably assume that many mistakes will spontaneously disappear as learners get more and more French input, certain mistakes can remain uncorrected. And voilà those uncorrected mistakes over time will become stubborn bad habits.

As I have stated before, the fundamental solution to these kinds of problems is three-fold: error detection, correction and deep study of the underlying grammar and semantic systems. For example, you have to first realize that you have made a liaison mistake, then you have to correct it with the right form and, best of all, you should understand why this is a mistake so that you don't make similar mistakes in the future.

All of this is very challenging, especially for the independent adult learners. The main problem here is lack of corrective feedback. That combined with lack of actual practice leads inevitably to failure which is what we see in the great majority of people who attempt to learn languages on their own.

Taking a class brings structure and discipline. Very good but there is still a (lesser) problem of lack of actual practice and corrective feedback. How much individual attention can one get in a 90-minute class of 20 students? The best is of course some sort of private instruction or attention.

I should point out here that the presence of a spouse, romantic partner or simply helpful native speakers can make all the difference in the world. And of course, offerings from iTalk, Babbel, Verbling and Rosetta Stone Live Tutoring all provide similar services.

The main point here is that bad habits or fossilized mistakes develop from lack of correction regardless of when you start speaking. I don't believe that old habits are impossible to change but it is true that the longer you wait the harder it becomes. However, in my opinion the real challenge is developing a true understanding of how the target language works in order to avoid making mistakes. Early speaking has nothing to do with all this.
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Re: Does early speaking lead to fossilized mistakes?

Postby Cainntear » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:28 pm

Random Review wrote:
Cainntear wrote:
s_allard wrote:I believe what Reineke is trying to point out is simply that you (and Random Review) are misusing the term "fossilisation".


Perhaps. I was applying the term as I understand it. Can you please explain in simple terms exactly what I have misunderstood about it. Genuine question, I genuinely want to judge whether you are right or not about that.

You were talking about children's language development earlier. You were talking about errors in (relatively) early production that were resolved later on in development.

A fossilised error is one that doesn't fix itself, so by definition, these aren't fossilised errors.

Furthermore, the idea of fossilised evolved out of the observation of developmental stages in language acquisition. Infant native speakers go through several stages of development, and produce forms that to an adult are considered errors. With adequate social contact and in the absence of any mental difficulties, children naturally grow out of this.

The notion of an "interlanguage" is that a learner of a language has an internal "theory" of the language they are acquiring that they constantly refine based on experience -- this idea goes for both first languages and second/subsequent languages. Fossilisation is when the learner stops refining the theory. Generally, this is seen as when the theory functions "good enough" that the learner doesn't experience reward from further improvements.
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Re: Does early speaking lead to fossilized mistakes?

Postby reineke » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:49 pm

Here's a blog about defossilization that includes some insightful and inspiring commentary.

The Defossilization Diaries
(excerpts)

Some background

"I was 36 when I arrived in Barcelona, a relatively late-starter in terms of second language learning,...

I was immediately plunged into a bruisingly busy timetable in a predominantly English-speaking institutional context. If Spanish was around, it existed at the periphery, like background noise: the language of shops, bars and restaurants – and hence primarily a weekend experience.

I signed up for Spanish classes in a private language school but the methodology was eccentric to say the least, and the content often irrelevant, being too firmly tied to the grammar structure of the day. Of one whole course all I remember is the sentence El payaso hace reir a la gente (The clown makes people laugh), and the teacher’s constant use of the device Vamos a ver (Now, let’s see)...

I then managed to get a place in one of the state-sponsored language schools..

Again, the program was myopically grammar-focused (one whole semester dealt almost exclusively with the subjunctive...

... Frustrated by the lack of real practice, I started an intercambio (conversation exchange)...

I also tried to read in Spanish regularly: newspapers and novels, although often abandoned the latter as being too much like hard work. Watching TV and going to the movies played a minor role: my problems with decoding spoken language (more on that later) meant that my comprehension was largely pragmatic: i.e. pure guesswork (and frequently wrong). Had teletext subtitles been available, the combination of the aural and graphic signals might have made TV viewing more fruitful, but they weren’t...

Unhappily perhaps, my views on language learning were at the time heavily influenced by the work of Stephen Krashen (it was the mid-80s after all), which meant that (a) I was very skeptical as to the value of instructed learning, and (b) I consequently placed a lot of faith in simply picking up Spanish through exposure. In those days, immersion ruled. I was to become one of its ideological fashion victims.

In Krashen’s defense, it has to be admitted that I was not exactly energetic in terms of seeking out optimal exposure opportunities, and even when I did get ‘input’, it was mostly uncomprehended. An article in the latest Modern Language Journal (Trentman 2013) makes the point that ‘much of the language contact research has revealed that contact with locals in the target language is often not as extensive as one might have expected from an immersion setting..

"Thirty years on, and what’s new? First of all, I tend to avoid mentioning the thirty years. The response is often outright incredulity: “But how come your Spanish is so bad?!”"

Admittedly, people are normally more polite than that (although once a particularly tactless Californian woman, gesticulating like an exorcist, gasped: ‘Ugh. Bad Spanish!’). So, in answer to the question ‘How long have you been here?’ I hedge, and let my addressee figure that I arrived when I had already reached the point in my life beyond which it’s impossible to learn anything new, let alone a second language...

Needless to say, this reaction – whether spoken or unspoken – is unsettling, to say the least. And on at least two counts. For a start, it’s true: I simply ought to be able to speak better Spanish after thirty years, so there must be some flaw in my nature, such as laziness, or obstinacy, or just plain stupidity, that has prevented me from integrating linguistically into the host culture. Worse is the insinuation that failure to speak your host country’s language fluently is a moral failing, a discourtesy, an indecency, even... "

Fossilization: is it terminal, doctor?

...These three stories (and there are many more, less well documented ones) tend to underscore the fact that, as Ellis (2008) puts it: ‘Fossilization is not an all-or-nothing phenomena. First, there is considerable variation in the extent to which individual learners fossilize.… [Moreover] it is perfectly possible for a learner to be fossilized in some aspects of the L2 but to continue to develop in others’ (Ellis 2008, p. 28).

However, of the three case studies cited, only Patty’s really qualifies as a case of true fossilization... since hers was the only study that was conducted over long enough a period to suggest that the non-target-like nature of at least some of her interlanguage grammar was immutable. That, after all, is what fossilization means, surely.

Or does it? As Long (2003) reminds us, ‘For many, “fossilization” has simply become a general, non-technical name for non-target-like ultimate attainment, that is, a performance descriptor, a broad-brush method of characterising what a learner did not do, not a competence issue, a matter of what he or she could not do, which is what made the original claim interesting’ (p.513, emphasis added). And he adds, ‘If fossilization is to have value as a construct in SLA theory, it must refer to something other than this general age-related decline in the capacity to acquire any language’ (p.519).

In other words, Long is asking us to distinguish between ‘failure to acquire’ (a widespread phenomenon) and ‘loss of ability to acquire’, a much more slippery notion, since what exactly is it that is lost, and how can you prove a negative anyway?

How do we know that Patty won’t suddenly (or even slowly) make a tiny incremental change in the direction of the target? For all these reasons, SLA scholars prefer the less terminal term stabilization: ‘Stabilization refers to a state of L2 development where fluctuation has temporarily ceased. Many L2 learners are familiar with the situation where they appear to plateau, failing to develop despite their continuing efforts to do so, and then make a ‘breakthrough’ sometime later’ (Ellis, op. cit: 30).

Ellis adds that ‘there is also another reason for preferring “stabilization” to “fossilization”. Talk of fossilization positions L2 learners as failures but, in fact, many achieve very considerable success in acquiring an L2’ (op. cit: 13). Indeed, the whole notion of a finite ‘end state’ in language acquisition has been challenged in recent years, along with the idea that native-speaker proficiency should be the measure by which learners should be judged.

In the end, as Ortega (2009: 135) summarises it, ‘the notion of fossilization, while strongly intuitive, has proved to be extremely problematic to pin down’. If I’d thought twice, I might have called this blog ‘The (De-) Stabilization Diaries’ – but, then, would anyone have known what I was talking about?

Back to school

I signed up for a two-week intensive course (4 hours a day, five days a week) in the language school affiliated to one of Barcelona’s several universities.

I chose to do an intensive course on the principle that ‘short sharp shock’ is more efficacious than the long slow haul. This is a view supported in the literature: Muñoz (2012: 142), for example, cites Rifkin (2005) to the effect that ‘there may be ceiling effects in instructed [foreign languages] given the low exposure to the language…. In that respect, Rifkin argues that students must immerse themselves to reach advanced proficiency, either in a domestic immersion program or abroad’.

Things I like

... Mistakes I make that represent fossilized forms are brought to my attention, e.g. overgeneralization of qué (‘what) when I should be using cuál (which); mas + de instead of mas + que (‘more than’) with numbers; underuse of imperfect forms with stative verbs (estaba, hacía, etc): this really does seem to verge on de-fossilization, leaving me quite often thinking (and sometimes voicing aloud) ‘I’ve spent nearly thirty years saying that without realizing it was wrong!’

What are classrooms good for?
My recent experience as a student on a short intensive Spanish course has given me pause for thought.

The fact of the matter is that I didn’t ‘learn’ a great deal, if learning means ‘the acquisition of new information’, ‘the internalization of input’ etc. I did pick up a number of potentially useful formulaic expressions (of which I’ll be writing more about later) and had some fossilized errors brought to my attention (as mentioned in my last post), but if this was learning, it tended to be sporadic, incidental, and, in fact, largely accidental – a by-product of tasks that had an altogether different purpose...

For me, the real benefit of these classes was the chance to be communicative within the safe ‘climbing frame’ that the classroom dynamic offered. ‘Chance’ is the operative word here, since most of these opportunities to be communicative were fortuitous, a case of grabbing some pretext to talk and running with it, rather than the pretext being built into the overall design of the lessons. For example, in one lesson, a passing reference to dogs (in a grammar exercise) precipitated a discussion about the rights and wrongs of keeping big dogs in small apartments, about attitudes to dogs in the different countries represented, and about films about dogs, during which I was able to tell a story about a neighbour and her annoying dog, this whole (highly productive and interactive) digression taking up about 25 minutes of classroom time.

To their credit, the teachers not only allowed these opportunities to evolve (in most instances), but were maximally supportive in providing help (in the form of recasts, for example) or feedback (in the form of correction). These teacher interventions seemed to represent real learning affordances, and served to distinguish what is called ‘instructional conversation’ from the kind of talk that occurs in ‘the real world’. The conversations we had were like dress rehearsals. They gave me the confidence to make the transition into the real world...

But it has to be stressed that these emergent and scaffolded classroom conversations were seldom planned. They emerged. What was planned was a succession of coursebook-based exercises, where the primary focus was on grammar. And on a relatively narrow range of fairly low-frequency grammatical items, at that. Or it was on vocabulary, but, again, often vocabulary that not only took the form of isolated words (as opposed to words in their typical phraseological environments) but were words of relatively low frequency and utility...

So, what are classes good for? They are good places for incidental learning to occur, particularly of the kind that emerges naturally out of classroom tasks. They are even better places to rehearse, experiment, take risks – and get ‘at the point of need’ support. These opportunities, and this support, combined with the total immersion in the language that I experienced four hours a day, five days a week, hugely facilitated my transition from the learning context into the using content. For that I am very thankful.

Formulae for success?

I am compulsively devouring phrases. I gobble up expressions like me da pena (it upsets me) and qué buen rollo tiene (how nice he is). It’s not just my reading of the literature on phraseology that impels me. It’s a gut-feeling that these phrases offer a shortcut to fluency, accuracy and idiomaticity ...

More recently, researchers into both first and second language acquisition have been arguing that a ‘mental phrasicon’ not only contributes to fluency but also feeds the acquisition of grammar. According to this view, a fully syntacticalized grammar is (at least partly) constructed out of, and synthesized from, a stock of memorized phrases.

Is it working? Yes and no. Recall of the phrases seems good in the short-term, but if I leave them a day or two, many of them have to be re-learned from scratch.

I suspect that the only way of making them stick is to force some kind of production, preferably in context. But what? Maybe I need to write, rehearse and even record short (e.g. two-minute) segments of talks that embed as many of the phrases as possible. Any thoughts?

Expensive reading

I have mixed feelings about the efficacy of the extensive reading that I have done to date. It doesn’t seem to have paid big dividends, given the time I’ve put into it.

Let me explain.

I read El País, a Spanish national newspaper, daily. At a conservative estimate, I calculate (on the basis of 200 words per 15 column centimetres) that I read around 5000 words a day. Subtracting the days each year that I might not have access to El País (fewer now that it is online, of course), let’s say I read 5000 words 300 days a year. That makes my annual exposure to written Spanish in the region of 1.5m words of running text (ignoring whatever other reading I might also be doing). What gains might I expect to accrue, given this amount of input?

Bill Grabe (2009: 273), citing recent research into the benefits of extensive reading, says:

If students read approximately a million words of running text a year, and if they know 96-98 per cent of the words, they will be exposed to 20,000 to 40,000 new words… If students learn one word in ten through context, they will learn somewhere between 2,000 and 4,000 new words through extensive reading in a year.

It follows, therefore, that, in the 25 or more years that I have been reading El País daily, I should have increased my vocabulary by, minimally, 50,000 words. This would give me the (receptive) vocabulary of a fairly well educated native-speaker.

Is this in fact the case?

I did a fairly quick-and-dirty test using a learners’ Spanish-English dictionary...

This gave a sight vocabulary of roughly 10,000 words (although of those 10,000 many are proper nouns, like Chile or Russia...

But it is a long way from the 50,000 I ought to have Accumulated...
So, it seems that I’m well within the optimal zone for vocabulary acquisition. So, why do I feel that I’m not acquiring any more new words?

One answer might be, not that the texts are too hard, but that they are too easy...

Confidence tricks

Language learning is often a case of taking two steps forward, then one step back. In fact, lately it feels more like one step forward and two steps back...

... A number of us have gathered outside in small groups, where the greater mobility afforded by standing takes some of the tension out of doing small talk. The topic, unsurprisingly, is smoking. I start to describe the draconian anti-smoking measures I’ve just witnessed in Australia. A friend who happens to be passing raises a laugh by teasing me about my pronunciation of a particular word. Once again, I am reduced to silence. I feel I’ve been transported back 25 years...

Autobiography as research

Kramsch (2009: 75) argues that, because emotions and feelings are implicated in language use, we need to engage with personal accounts of language learning since these are about ‘the serious life of the self: desire, fear, and survival’.

Pavlenko goes on to argue that autobiographical narratives are not only interesting and easy to read, but that they have value as a medium of reflection both for their authors and for their readers.

What have I learned in these three months?

More than anything, I’ve learned that, to speak another language with any confidence, you have to own it. As Widdowson said, you have to make it your own, you have to bend it to your will. This will mean personalizing it, not conforming to its dictates and, inevitably, committing what in classroom terms are known as errors.

And to bend a language to your will is to recruit it for the purposes of optimizing communication in specific contexts. It is to be resourceful, not just in the sense of using the available learning resources (online dictionaries, digital vocabulary cards, opportunities to engage with strangers etc), but resourceful in the sense of being able to deploy your existing knowledge, however limited, towards achieving your specific communicative goals in specific situations...

It’s a truism, but one worth shouting from the roof-tops: you get better at a language by using it. More significantly, you learn a language by using it. As Brumfit (2001: 12) puts it, ‘learning is using, and using is learning’. And he adds:

We may learn the tokens of language formally, but we learn the system by using it through reading or writing, or conversing.

In fact, my ‘learning of the tokens’ (vocabulary items, grammatical structures, and so on) does not seem to have paid huge dividends – not yet, at least. Even the time I put into trying to learn the relevant lexical phrases to use in my presentation showed only minimal returns: I managed just a handful. As for my capacity to articulate the key polysyllabic nouns that I had rehearsed and rehearsed, such as fosilización and desestabilazión, it was frankly embarrassing.

All this does seem to confirm that, according to the ‘law of diminishing returns’, progress follows an s-shaped learning curve. To maintain the same rate of progress over time, you have to invest proportionately greater effort...

‘If language is learned for worldly use, the learning process itself must be use-based’ (Churchill et al. 2010: 249). Not knowledge-based. Not grammar-based. Not even lexical phrase-based. Just use-based... "

Read the rest here:
https://scottthornburyblog.com/
Last edited by reineke on Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does early speaking lead to fossilized mistakes?

Postby Cainntear » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:52 pm

s_allard wrote:I'll leave the theoretical debate over the definition and theory of fossilization to those who are more educated, intelligent and intellectual than I am.

Put the violin away, s_allard. No-one here has questioned your intelligence or education.
I have challenged your willingness to consider others' opinion and your willingness to actually debate points, and I think it's quite interesting that your response is to pretend I said something entirely different and play the victim.
Instead, I like to concentrate on the subject of the thread and down-to-earth examples.

I find this deeply offensive -- everyone involved in this thread is concentrating on the subject, and to imply otherwise is extremely rude.

In fact, you are arguably the individual furthest from the thread topic, with constant comments like this one:
nothing to do with starting to speak early or late - whenever that is

Your approach throughout this thread has been to repeatedly say "No" to the topic of the thread and then start talking about something different.
Although some academics get all worked up about the term fossilization, I believe it is just a fancy word for bad habits.

But it's not. It's a contentious phenomenon -- some people say it exists, some say it doesn't. As an atheist, I do not redefine the word "god" to refer to some physical phenomenon and complain about theologians who get "worked up about the term" -- I say "I do not believe there is such a thing as a god, but others disagree."

As for the rest of your post, it is a mixture of you simply restating the same things you have said half a dozen times already in the thread, and a barely half-explained description of a particular phenomenon in a particular language with little attempt to tie it back to the thread topic. (Written in what I consider a pretty "turgid" style, if I'm honest.)

Of the substantive points you raise, all have been raised before, and all have been responded to. You have refused to engage in debate over them. Repeating them now without acknowledging others' attempts to debate them is crassly poor etiquette.
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Re: Does early speaking lead to fossilized mistakes?

Postby tarvos » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:09 pm

I don't want to get into your debate with s_allard the s_illy, but I just wanted to ask what you meant by something you mentioned in one of your posts:

{Citation needed} There are uncountable numbers of papers out there showing the limited power of correction at a later stage.


Is this referring to pronunciation errors or grammar, vocabulary, etc. errors? Because I find the latter category can be easily corrected with some practice, but pronunciation is much harder unless you really get deeply into speech therapy territory or learn how to produce phonemes from day one.
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Re: Does early speaking lead to fossilized mistakes?

Postby rdearman » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:54 pm

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Re: Does early speaking lead to fossilized mistakes?

Postby Random Review » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:14 pm

Cainntear wrote:
Random Review wrote:
Cainntear wrote:
s_allard wrote:I believe what Reineke is trying to point out is simply that you (and Random Review) are misusing the term "fossilisation".


Perhaps. I was applying the term as I understand it. Can you please explain in simple terms exactly what I have misunderstood about it. Genuine question, I genuinely want to judge whether you are right or not about that.

You were talking about children's language development earlier. You were talking about errors in (relatively) early production that were resolved later on in development.

A fossilised error is one that doesn't fix itself, so by definition, these aren't fossilised errors.

Furthermore, the idea of fossilised evolved out of the observation of developmental stages in language acquisition. Infant native speakers go through several stages of development, and produce forms that to an adult are considered errors. With adequate social contact and in the absence of any mental difficulties, children naturally grow out of this.

The notion of an "interlanguage" is that a learner of a language has an internal "theory" of the language they are acquiring that they constantly refine based on experience -- this idea goes for both first languages and second/subsequent languages. Fossilisation is when the learner stops refining the theory. Generally, this is seen as when the theory functions "good enough" that the learner doesn't experience reward from further improvements.


Hi, Cainntear. OK, that's a fair point. I think I can make an argument that these can be looked at fossilised errors though, mate. Firstly I think it is more helpful to look at fossilised errors as being highly resistant to fixing themselves and tending not to under most circumstances, because then we can ask the question about the circumstances under which they do change (of course if these circumstances obtained more widely, they wouldn't be fossilised errors). I seem to remember even the FSI talking somewhere about fossilised errors as taking far more effort to put right than it takes someone to learn it properly in the first place rather than not fixable. We have all watched native children repeating the same errors over and over again and utterly regardless of continued correction over extended periods of time (until one day they don't) These are errors that are persistent and resistant to change. Even if it probably isn't a prototypical case of a fossilised error, I think it is useful and legitimate to treat them as being such. Of course there are some important differences between this and what we might think of as prototypical cases of fossilised error and I thank you for helping me to not gloss over that too hastily (in particular for making clear that my positing them as fossilised errors is something I have assumed rather than shown); but these differences are actually what makes it interesting to posit them as fossilised errors and ask why the outcome is so different.

At any rate, it's a definitional problem. Perhaps (I'm still not sure either way TBH*) you are right about the definition and I have used the word incorrectly; but then I think my point (reworded) remains: why do native children repeat, practice and rehearse the same mistakes over and over again, make no conscious effort to correct them and indeed actively resist adult attempts to correct them and yet the errors don't fossilise?

Which ever way it should be worded, I think the question is an interesting one for language learners and pertinent to the thread (even if it turns out I am spectacularly wrong in calling them fossilised errors).

* If I had to hazard a guess and speaking as a layperson rather than an academic linguist, I suspect that it could be one of many academic terms that have entered entered everyday language and acquired new meanings that weren't part of the original academic definition, because I'm pretty sure I've seen other people using the term "loosely" in similar ways to s_allard and myself.
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Re: Does early speaking lead to fossilized mistakes?

Postby s_allard » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:21 pm

(Because in rdearman's entreaty, I removed my little retort to the usual insults).

I have an 84-year old woman student who must be a text-book case of stubborn bad habits. She started French about 10 years ago mostly on her own with French In Action. I really admire her dogged determination to learn French before she dies. The main cause of her problems is the dominant influence or interference of her L1 English. She'll say things like: "C'est très humureuze" for "It's very humourous".

But what is interesting is how good her pronunciation is. It's not native-like of course, but aside from the -u -ou distinction, everything else is quite good and often much better than the young people of her grand-children's age in the class. I would like to think that this is the result of her good work and my phonetics class that focuses on developing a good accent in French.

I have since come to the conclusion that accent can be substantially improved through a combination of explicit training along the lines of what Olle Kjellin recommends and careful guided listening. I also believe that most people have an innate ability to imitate what they hear. All they need is a little help with the actual articulation.

The other idea that I'm less sure of is that the phonetic system of L2 is more easily detached from L1 because it doesn't require the same kind of interaction with L1 that vocabulary and grammar do.

I raise this issue because it was claimed earlier in this thread that the reason French-speaking learners of English have problems with the sounds of TH is that they don't perceive the difference between d and voiced th and t and unvoiced th. Since they don't perceive the difference they can't reproduce the difference.

While this may be true the very first times foreign sounds are heard, it only takes a little exposure or training to actually perceive a difference in sound. But reproducing the sounds is a completely different challenge.

It should also be pointed out that in certain varieties of English, this TH is actually realized by d and t. This is what Wikipedia has to say:

th-stopping
Many speakers of African American Vernacular English, Caribbean English, Liberian English, Nigerian English, Philadelphia English, and Philippine English (along with other Asian English varieties) pronounce the fricatives /θ, ð/ as alveolar stops [t, d]. Similarly, but still distinctly, many speakers of New York City English, Chicago English, Boston English, Indian English, Newfoundland English, and Hiberno-English use the dental stops [t̪, d̪] (typically distinct from alveolar [t, d]) instead of, or in free variation with, [θ, ð].
In Cockney, the th-stopping may occur when a word begins with /ð/ (but not its voiceless counterpart /θ/).


Now, the question is what do these speakers of English hear? I think they hear /θ, ð/ perfectly well. But they say [t, d]. They are not saying [t, d] because that is what they hear.

With a little exposure, European French-speakers certainly hear the /θ, ð/. That is why they tend to produce a /s, z/ that approximate these sounds. Whey do French-Canadians tend to produce [t, d]? It's somewhat of a mystery to me. I suspect it may be the contact with varieties of English that use [t, d].
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Re: Does early speaking lead to fossilized mistakes?

Postby Cainntear » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:23 pm

tarvos wrote:
{Citation needed} There are uncountable numbers of papers out there showing the limited power of correction at a later stage.


Is this referring to pronunciation errors or grammar, vocabulary, etc. errors? Because I find the latter category can be easily corrected with some practice, but pronunciation is much harder unless you really get deeply into speech therapy territory or learn how to produce phonemes from day one.

My understanding is that it has been replicated over pretty much every area of language. (Although where the errors are correctable, some categories are easier than others -- vocab is easy, pronunciation is difficult.)

I personally think that the problem is exaggerated by the methodology, and that teachers in general focus on explicit correction -- explaining errors rather that giving the minimum indication of errors required to allow the learner to correct themselves. After all, the thing that needs corrected isn't really the output of the process, but the process itself. You cannot fix the process without supporting the student in following the process, and explicit correction doesn't do this.
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