The use of FSI, a question of efficiency.

[jsega]

My raw language input gets served in buckets. An FSI drill would be a wafer thin mint too much.

Is that raw language FDA approved?

[PeterMollenburg]

My raw language input gets served in buckets. An FSI drill would be a wafer thin mint too much.

Is that raw language FDA approved?

If it is, you can wholeheartedly trust their honest approval processes, right?

[reineke]

These days it's either Mexican or choicy, top quality French stuff, served by a maître d'hôtel - so possibly not 100% sanctioned by the FDA.

"Maître-D': Good afternoon, sir. And how are we today?
Mr Creosote: Better.
Maître-D': Better?
Mr Creosote: Better get a bucket. I'm gonna throw up.
Maître-D': Today we have for appetisers: moules marinières, pâté de foie gras, Beluga caviar, eggs Benedictine, tart de poireau — that’s leek tart — frogs’ legs amandine, or oeufs de caille Richard Shepherd — c’est-à-dire, little quails’ eggs on a bed of puréed mushroom. It’s very delicate, very subtle.
Mr Creosote: I’ll have the lot.
[Pause]
Maître-D': A wise choice, monsieur. And now, how would you like it served? All mixed up together in a bucket?
Mr Creosote: With the eggs on top"

Monty Python's The Meaning of Life
Musical-sketch comedy film by the Monty Python team

An unforgettable scene, but not for the queasy...

[luke]

If one is an auto-didact (self learner/self teacher), FSI Basic Spanish is very good. It does help chunk up and automate a lot of language structures. When I was studying Spanish, most native speakers were surprised at my fluidity and correctness. I credit FSI Spanish for that.

The only "flash carding" I might suggest is for words that after repeated exposure still seem to resist memorization. Literally 98-99% of the words will end up getting memorized without flashcards if you do the course using a repetition based approach. Although it teaches about 2000-2500 words, it's not a vocabulary course. It's a how to speak correctly and with automaticity course.

FSI courses (French and Spanish) are grueling, so a mixed approach was always necessary for me.

One aspect of success is patience. If one is comfortable misconjugating, using incorrect adjectives and misusing prepositions, one doesn't need drills. But if you want to speak properly, FSI drills are very helpful.

One thing I liked about them is I could do the practices in my car, away from the book most of the time. That was convenient for me. If one uses public transportation, it might not be as comfortable drilling out loud with a bus or train full of people. Then, a book and earphones would be handy and helpful.

[Cainntear]

If one is an auto-didact (self learner/self teacher), FSI Basic Spanish is very good.

Hmm... I think pretty much everyone on this forum is an autodidact, and yet many of us feel that FSI isn't helpful to us.

[Speakeasy]

Hmm... I think pretty much everyone on this forum is an autodidact, and yet many of us feel that FSI isn't helpful to us.

The number of people who have taken a position on either side of this question and their reasons for doing so are quite immaterial. Language learning is not subject to the principles of democracy. Whether the purported benefits of incorporating audio-lingual materials into one's independent language-learning programme are genuine and measurable or simply psychological in nature, or even analogous to a homeopathic effect, is neither here nor there. Neither side will convince the other.

[reineke]

The wrong and right way to learn a foreign language

June 16, 2012
"This was written by linguist Stephen Krashen, professor emeritus at the University of Southern California, is an educational researcher and activist. He has written hundreds of articles and books in the fields of second language acquisition, bilingual education, and reading.

In a recent issue of the Washington Post Express, Andrew Eil, a staffer who works at the U.S. State Department on international climate change, recommends that foreign language students start with “boot camp:” Study grammar very hard, drill vocabulary every day, and force yourself to talk. This regimen, he claims, put him in a position to develop high levels of competence in several languages; he now speaks Russian and French fluently and can converse in Mandarin and Kazakh.

Most of us who have taken foreign languages classes that emphasize heavy grammar instruction and memorizing vocabulary would disagree with his recommendations, and so does the research.

The results of studies done over the last few decades by a wide variety of researchers and published in scientific journals support this view: We do not master languages by hard study and memorization, or by producing it. Rather, we acquire language when we understand what people tell us and what we read, when we get “comprehensible input.” As we get comprehensible input through listening and reading, we acquire (or “absorb”) the grammar and vocabulary of the second language.

Studies show repeatedly that intensive grammar study and memorizing vocabulary are of limited value: Students in classes that provide lots of comprehensible input (e.g. methods such as TPRS) consistently do better than students in traditional grammar-based classes on tests that involve real communication and do just as well, and often better, on grammar tests. .."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/an ... 5eaa8320fa

The article that provoked Krashen's response is pretty bad:

"Take a hard class with lots of grammar.
Maybe James Bond can arrive in Montenegro and be fluent in Serbo-Croatian within minutes. In the real world, you can only learn to speak a language well if you learn how it’s built.

Words are the bricks, and grammar is the mortar. Without solid grammatical skills, you will lose a lot of native-speaking friends whose patience is tested to the breaking point. Trust me, I know...

So you’ve taken a year or two of college-level Spanish (or the Rosetta Stone equivalent). Now what?

Time to test your mettle in real-life situations: Do you know how to ask whether a store in China has shampoo? Or what to say to the customs agent who frisks you at the Russian border?

For that kind of fluency, you need in-country immersion, preferably at least four to six months...

...The very best way to acquire speaking and listening skills quickly is to participate in a summer immersion language program. You can go anywhere to do this — in fact, I argue that the best opportunities are often in the U.S.

...These programs are admittedly expensive (sometimes in the range of $10,000 for six to 10 weeks), but a quality program can help you leapfrog entire academic years in a single summer....

....I haven’t spoken Kazakh since 2007, and it’s virtually gone. Solution: Return to Step No. 1. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/express/ ... 59db9526c1

.

[jsega]

The wrong and right way to learn a foreign language

June 16, 2012
"This was written by linguist Stephen Krashen....

I hope he's not suggesting our years of drilling English grammar at school was a waste of time. I'm not sure I could tolerate the truth of that amount of inefficiency.

[Cainntear]

Hmm... I think pretty much everyone on this forum is an autodidact, and yet many of us feel that FSI isn't helpful to us.

The number of people who have taken a position on either side of this question and their reasons for doing so are quite immaterial.

I amn't trying to convince anyone of my view, I'm just pointing out that Luke's statement was overly strong, and completely ignores what's been said already. And by "ignores", I do mean "ignores", and not "disagrees with", which is important. Respectful disagreement requires acknowledging there is a disagreement in the first place.

And sorry if I sound snippy here (OK, sorry "that" I sound snippy, I know I do), cos I don't actually feel annoyed about it at all, but I just think it's important to say.

[reineke]

The question:

FSI French - Has anyone actually completed the whole thing?

.. didn't have many takers. It's easier to criticize FSI than to actually complete the course. Based on the reviews so far, people who have actually completed the course were generally pleased with the results.

Anecdotal evidence is not a definite proof that drills are the answer to every language learning problem but it's an indication that they might be useful.