Anyone can learn a foreign language... to what level?

[Jar-Ptitsa]

That was good to know.

I wonder what our other members think -

Do you think anyone can learn a foreign language, and if so, in what timeframe and to what level do you mean?

Anyone can learn a foreign language in one day to C2 level.

[smallwhite]

That was good to know.

I wonder what our other members think -

Do you think anyone can learn a foreign language, and if so, in what timeframe and to what level do you mean?

[aokoye]

The part that gets frustrating lack of intellectual honesty when people say "I couldn't possibly" when they really mean "I am struggling with something else" "I don't have interest in putting in that much work" "the idea of that makes my eyes bleed. I'd rather jump of a bridge than voluntarily study grammar again".

I don't think anyone is signing up to judge people by how well they are living up to perceived potential. Sure hope not in my case.

I would argue that what I bolded above isn't about intellectual honesty (though really I might not know what you mean by that) and is likely often very different that, "i have no interest in putting in that much work" or, "the idea of studying grammar again makes my eyes bleed". If I say, "i'm struggling with something else" I likely am referring to my depression. For other people I know/have known that means they're dealing with other mental health issues, the death or serious illness of a family member, the fact that they have children and are also in school full or part time, and so on.

My having to deal with my mental health issues has nothing to do with intellect (in reference to the term "intellectual honesty") for likely the better. I think it's fair to assume that that is true for most people with mental illnesses.

[Ani]

I don't know why, but I can't understand this post sorry. (maybe tarvos could translate it in french / dutch? ) I think that I undertsnad the second paragraph but the 1st and 3rd I can't. thanks.

I'm very sorry! I am not sure I know how to clarify. I think this whole discussion hinges on specific connotations, which might be the source of your frustrations with it while other people aren't seeing it that way. I don't mind if someone wants to try and translate me, but I am not sure anything I said was that valuable

The part that gets frustrating lack of intellectual honesty when people say "I couldn't possibly" when they really mean "I am struggling with something else" "I don't have interest in putting in that much work" "the idea of that makes my eyes bleed. I'd rather jump of a bridge than voluntarily study grammar again".

I don't think anyone is signing up to judge people by how well they are living up to perceived potential. Sure hope not in my case.

I would argue that what I bolded above isn't about intellectual honesty (though really I might not know what you mean by that) and is likely often very different that, "i have no interest in putting in that much work" or, "the idea of studying grammar again makes my eyes bleed". If I say, "i'm struggling with something else" I likely am referring to my depression. For other people I know/have known that means they're dealing with other mental health issues, the death or serious illness of a family member, the fact that they have children and are also in school full or part time, and so on.

My having to deal with my mental health issues has nothing to do with intellect (in reference to the term "intellectual honesty") for likely the better. I think it's fair to assume that that is true for most people with mental illnesses.

I am using the term intellectual honesty more to define taking responsibility for your self awareness. There seems to be a huge number of people who blame other people, situations which they can change, or even their own intelligence (without having tested it) for being unable to do something. A lack of intellectual honesty would be a deeper form of making excuses that crosses over into lying to yourself. It's like people who say "I can't learn a language because I am not as talented as you" when they mean one of my examples above (and depression is certainly a valid reason, as is my own of having a billion kids!) or "I don't have time to do xyz" when they really should say "I don't want to change anything about the 4.5 hours a day I spend reading Facebook". I don't think anyone owes anyone else an explanation of their challenges in life, but I do believe we should take inventory and ownership of our choices, including how we spend our time.

Anyway that is getting pretty far from the original question...

[gsbod]

I can't speak for anyone/everyone, but I have noticed there are two levels at which I get stuck.

The first one is the A0-A1 level. It's the bit between having a dabble and actually really starting to lay the groundwork. Whether I get past this point depends on time available and how strong my interest really is in the language. Most languages I have ever attempted to learn got stuck at this level.

The next sticking point is B1-B2 level. Laziness can creep in, since I am able to use the language now, all be it inelegantly. However, with Japanese I found myself frustratingly stuck here. There were simply not enough opportunities to practice, and I eventually conceded that without opportunities to practice (ie use the language) there wasn't much point spending time trying to level up. It's not as if I have plans to relocate to Japan, now or ever.

I am well aware that my German is now also at this level. I think I have the best chance with German, for a number of reasons, but I'm not there yet.

[blaurebell]

To be honest, I think this discussion about the potential of people as opposed to their problems / struggles isn't really what this question was supposed to be about. Judging people by their potential is always unfair, because what people really want to do is their own business and not for anyone else to judge. What I'm trying to say is, if some people don't want to learn a language to a high level and are happy to plateau at whatever level they find sufficient, that's totally ok. If some people don't have the time due to other obligations or have other struggles to confront like health issues, that's fine too. If some people only want a passive understanding, fine as well. We shouldn't be in the business of judging people at all.

So, the real question is: Given ideal circumstances - a healthy brain, no other obligations or challenges, sufficient motivation to learn said language, etc. - what is the level people can achieve? I already said above what I think about this, but I have to qualify that I was talking mainly about relatively close languages, like learning Spanish or French as a German native. I have never attempted something like Japanese or Arabic and even with Russian I have my doubts as to the possibility of ever reaching C2 based simply on the difficulty of certain grammatical concepts. What do you guys think, is there a difference in level attainable if the languages are very different from each other? Is C2 attainable at all when attempting something as wildly different as Japanese for an English speaker? Are Chinese speakers bound to plateau at B1-B2 when attempting to learn Spanish unless they have that mythical language gene?

[tarvos]

C2 is definitely attainable - it just takes more time to build up the vocabulary and wrap your head around the grammar.

[blaurebell]

C2 is definitely attainable - it just takes more time to build up the vocabulary and wrap your head around the grammar.

Yes, I'd imagine that vocabulary might be difficult when you can't automatically know how a word is said by seeing it written / written by hearing it said. I wonder whether there is a good way of doing it without going through long-term anki torture - I know a lot of people love anki, but I personally don't like being a slave of a computer program. I like reading to build vocabulary and that seems somewhat impossible with Japanese.

Maybe learning styles have a big influence on success with certain languages as well? Grammar lovers will get a kick out of Russian, People who can stand Anki will do well on Japanese, that sort of thing maybe?

[tarvos]

C2 is definitely attainable - it just takes more time to build up the vocabulary and wrap your head around the grammar.

Yes, I'd imagine that vocabulary might be difficult when you can't automatically know how a word is said by seeing it written / written by hearing it said. I wonder whether there is a good way of doing it without going through long-term anki torture - I know a lot of people love anki, but I personally don't like being a slave of a computer program. I like reading to build vocabulary and that seems somewhat impossible with Japanese.

Maybe learning styles have a big influence on success with certain languages as well? Grammar lovers will get a kick out of Russian, People who can stand Anki will do well on Japanese, that sort of thing maybe?

Many people learned these languages to a high level before the advent of Anki. I don't really think it hugely matters. There's an urban myth floating around that Mandarin Chinese doesn't have any grammar, but it most certainly does - morphology and case systems aren't the only thing involved in grammar, you know.

I haven't really used Anki much for Russian except in the beginning - and I still learned Russian just fine.

[smallwhite]

C2 is definitely attainable - it just takes more time to...

I don't remember whether it was diabetes or dementia or something else, but I've heard that everyone eventually gets it, just that some people die before they do

To be honest, I think this discussion about the potential of people as opposed to their problems / struggles isn't really what this question was supposed to be about.

When people ask "Can you speed up a falling apple by adding weight to it?", they don't argue about whether the apple wants to fall.

They aren't saying the apple has to fall like every apple else either, for that matter.