I can't learn a language! vs I am a slow learner!

[moo]

Newbie Newbie-New insists that he must review the chapter for 10 more times because he has not felt any results. Xenops, with her experience above, can tell Newbie-New that that's just an illusion he's not improving - he is - and that it's ok to proceed after just 2 reviews. That is, Xenops can tell him that he is not as slow as he thinks.

"Newbie Newbie -New"? Why try to insult people ? Does it make you feel better about yourself to put other people down and say you know their abilties better than they know themselves?

[moo]

Exactly! Newbie Newbie-New insists that he must review the chapter for 10 more times because he has not felt any results. Xenops, with her experience above, can tell Newbie-New that that's just an illusion he's not improving - he is - and that it's ok to proceed after just 2 reviews. That is, Xenops can tell him that he is not as slow as he thinks.

Maybe you should concentrate on yourself instead of judging other people and thinking you know so much better than them

[Jar-Ptitsa]

People are not all the same. If one person needs / wants / prefers to review a chapter 10 times or 4673809236241 times, why is this a problem for you? If a person learns slowly why is this a problem for you? Maybe a person is not as slow or slower or faster than he / she thinks, but it's not your problem and certianly you havne't got the right to criticise a person that they are a slow learner / thinks they are slow etc etc etc .

Anyway, why is it so important to be a fast learner? or better? It seems a very stressful way to be.

[jsega]

Exactly! Newbie Newbie-New insists that he must review the chapter for 10 more times because he has not felt any results. Xenops, with her experience above, can tell Newbie-New that that's just an illusion he's not improving - he is - and that it's ok to proceed after just 2 reviews. That is, Xenops can tell him that he is not as slow as he thinks.

Maybe you should concentrate on yourself instead of judging other people and thinking you know so much better than them

Are you seriously taking offense for the imaginary person's feelings she is jokingly referring to here? As a beginner to language learning myself, give it a rest already and allow an otherwise interesting discussion to proceed.

[moo]

Are you seriously taking offense for the imaginary person's feelings she is jokingly referring to here? As a beginner to language learning myself, give it a rest already and allow an otherwise interesting discussion to proceed.

I'm not stopping the discussion and if you think it's so great why don't you add something yourself . . And just 'cause someone says something jokingly doesn't mean it's not insulting.

[smallwhite]

Why try to insult people ? Does it make you feel better about yourself to put other people down and say you know their abilties better than they know themselves?

I know what you mean, but when I see people smarter than they see themselves, I can't be trying to insult them.

[moo]

Why try to insult people ? Does it make you feel better about yourself to put other people down and say you know their abilties better than they know themselves?

I know what you mean, but when I see people smarter than they see themselves, I can't be trying to insult them.

YOu edited out the name you call beginners that i was refering to.... (when you quoted me)

[smallwhite]

People are not all the same. If one person needs / wants / prefers to review a chapter 10 times or 4673809236241 times, why is this a problem for you? If a person learns slowly why is this a problem for you? Maybe a person is not as slow or slower or faster than he / she thinks, but it's not your problem and certianly you havne't got the right to criticise a person that they are a slow learner / thinks they are slow etc etc etc .

Anyway, why is it so important to be a fast learner? or better? It seems a very stressful way to be.

For example, my friend is Chinese and minored in Japanese (ie. not too hard). She hasn't used Japanese for a long time, but she often wants to pick it back up. Every time, she starts reviewing from Book 1 Chapter 1. Every time, she gives up very soon. Many times already and she's still on Book 1 Chapter 1 or thereabout.

And I want to suggest to her to pick up where she left off instead. Then maybe she'd now be at Chapter 10 or 20. I care because she is a friend and I want to see her proceed faster.

I don't think I criticised my friend or the other slow-paced people?

Why try to insult people ? Does it make you feel better about yourself to put other people down and say you know their abilties better than they know themselves?

I know what you mean, but when I see people smarter than they see themselves, I can't be trying to insult them.

YOu edited out the name you call beginners that i was refering to.... (when you quoted me)

Yes, I did. I didn't realise that was the insult you meant. I didn't mean to insult him. I originally wrote "Newbie Newbie insists that" but that was too confusing to read, so I renamed him Newbie-New.

[jsega]

I have to chime in here because I do think there is something being lost in translation (people not getting it). There is slow/steady by design, because of a chosen methodical strategy, and then there is slow because you are literally just floundering around making no linear progress (you basically have no useful strategy), I was the latter.

Method matters

Thanks to the wonders of google search results, my first encounter in attempting to learn Spanish was Benny Lewis' blog and his speak from day one strategy. It was obviously really popular and I wrongly assumed him an authority on the subject due to this. I thought, "This must be how it's done.''

This method turned out horrible for me. I was making no progress after months of...floundering (for lack of a different/better term) and it got to the point where somewhere in my head I started to believe that it just wasn't going to happen for me because of my personality (very introverted so the speak from day one was horribly uncomfortable) and other personal reasons. Also, precisely due to those months of basically no progress, it reinforced this belief. Who knows, maybe if I stuck with it I would have at least pushed forward eventually, but the point is, it's extremely demotivating when you spend a considerable amount of time only to have nothing to show for it.

Long story short years later of happening upon and reading posts on HTLAL and then this forum, I realized I was wrong yada yada and I'm ready and confidently moving forward (with a lot of questions).

Someone like PM is working methodically forward, with courses and/or native material so what, and clearly will reach his goal (the fact that he even has clear language goals is a sign that he is not the subject of this thread) if he continues. But some people can go on for years and years of giving up, starting over, rinse and repeat, without ever even breaking past that first big wall of being able to actually enjoy and effectively work in the target language. PM admits in this very thread that he became conscious of possible gaps in his strategy (through conversations in these forums I take it) and it has at least somewhat helped him, which shows that open discussion and critiques on methods are useful.

If someone states they have a goal of learning their stated target language (obviously that is one area many need help in initially, setting proper/realistic goals and time management), they're clearly coming to a forum like this looking for help and advice, so Smallwhite's main idea only makes sense. Believing otherwise and just having the attitude of ''let's just throw motivating words at him/her and not point out possible missteps or improvements'' is similar to a professional teacher/tutor with an awesome personality but an absolutely worthless teaching method.

Method most definitely matters. This doesn't mean any one person knows the ''best'' method. This just means someone may have enough experience to point out clearly (to them) bad methods and common pitfalls.

I know I'm not the only person who has and will simply lose motivation after not seeing any basic, measurable results after a considerable amount of time (to be clear I am now seeing results) but I do really want to learn my target language for concrete reasons (not just as a hobby or stress reliever). If someone is content doing one Duolingo lesson a day, I don't think that is what the subject of discussion is here either.

All that being said, I think Iguanamon (who has posted in this thread, but Iversen too) is a great example of exactly what Smallwhite is talking about and I'm actually surprised it hasn't been pointed out yet. I mean, in my view he has done exactly Smallwhite is suggesting, more or less, with his multi-track approach write-up. He's not picking out everything that's wrong about someone's strategy but he is giving them a choice to take his advice or not when he links it (or simply having it in his signature). I know Smallwhite also seems to be advocating for more advice on a micro level, and that's fine, but Iguanamon's mass way of doing it is just as good, actually better (I'm sure someone with more specific questions AFTER reading it could PM him).

To be clear I specifically use Iguanamon as an example because I've seen him reply to just about every newcomer (including me) where he actively shares his guide and therefore gives people a framework to then ask more questions if that's what they want, effectively putting the ball in their court (which I personally think is really great).

So basically my question to Smallwhite's question is, why don't you do a guide (or whatever you want to call it) that effectively does exactly what you're talking about (except you're heading it off at the pass so to speak)? For all I know maybe you have and I haven't seen it. Either way, I know I would be very interested in reading it and I'm sure others would be as well.

[jsega]

Are you seriously taking offense for the imaginary person's feelings she is jokingly referring to here? As a beginner to language learning myself, give it a rest already and allow an otherwise interesting discussion to proceed.

I'm not stopping the discussion and if you think it's so great why don't you add something yourself . . And just 'cause someone says something jokingly doesn't mean it's not insulting.

Insulting to whom? It's a hypothetical person, she didn't actually insult anyone