Language Shaming

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
reineke
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
Languages: Fox (C4)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
x 6554

Re: Language Shaming

Postby reineke » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:58 pm

Like I mentioned above, I don't think a stay-at-home student is safe from "fossilizing". I would imagine that a full immersion experience would involve interaction with a competent instructor. I don't see many A1 students talking their heads off outside of classroom. I remained mostly silent during my last European excursion. I was busy running from place to place but I appreciated being surrounded by native speakers. Fossilization would require its own thread.
0 x

User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3657
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German, Italian
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian; Romanian, Galician; Danish, Swedish; Estonian
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Czech, Latvian
x 5179
Contact:

Re: Language Shaming

Postby Serpent » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:31 pm

How many people have actually learned from scratch to C1/C2 through immersion? Apart from teens or young adults attending school/university/doing postgrade studies etc, my impression is that it's more common to reach B1/B2 from scratch and C1 with prior knowledge.
0 x
LyricsTraining now has Finnish and Polish :)
Corrections welcome

s_allard
Blue Belt
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:01 pm
Location: Canada
Languages: French (N), English (N), Spanish (C2 Cert.), German (B2 Cert)
x 2300

Re: Language Shaming

Postby s_allard » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:55 pm

blaurebell wrote:
s_allard wrote:What's the logic behind learning at home until B2 and then venturing out into the real world as opposed to immersion as soon as possible? If nothing else, it must be more fun to learn a language when you are totally surrounded by it instead of staying at home reading a book, listening to recordings and talking to yourself?


The logic is that if you speak early you will develop bad habits and fossilised mistakes especially if you speak to a lot of foreigners who also make a lot of mistakes. My own experience: I only started speaking English freely when I was already at B2 level, could read extensively and watch movies. I hardly made grammar mistakes at that point - school classes were grammar drill heavy - and now I don't really have any fossilised mistakes that haunt me. Getting from B2 to C2 was effortless and simply a question of time. In comparison I learned Spanish in an immersion context from scratch with not so grammar heavy interaction classes and I was mainly surrounded by foreigners. After lots of native input I can at least hear my mistakes now, but I still don't know how to say things correctly. What comes out of my mouth is what I have been saying, not what I hear others say. As a result I've been at B2 level for about 7 years although I've lived in Spain for 2.5 years :roll: No improvement whatsoever! And this was the same for every single person I met at the language school who started there from scratch. Not a single one went beyond B2 even though some of them stayed for a year or longer with 3h of classes every day! There was the inevitable plateau and that was it.


And with Spanish I'm now actually repeating my mum's story with German - she has been living in Germany for 35 years and still speaks at B2 level, despite C2 comprehension. She speaks a lot and fast, but with many mistakes. Her mistakes are more frequent in her favourite sentences, since she has been repeating them over and over for the last few decades. She doesn't necessarily make the same mistakes with new sentences, apart from word order and the occasional slip with articles. I spent my teenage years trying to correct her, but finally gave up. Eternal B2. The reason is simple: She was forced to speak way too early and since it's always been "good enough" for her purposes, she had no reason to try and improve it.

I guess the only way to get this out of the system is to grind it out the hard way. Or at least I hope it's even possible, since I don't actually know a single person who managed to get rid of these kinds of fossilised mistakes. It's way harder to unlearn bad habits than to develop good habits in the first place. I have now a whole lot of Grammar drills and FSI scheduled - possibly a double dose if one pass isn't enough - and I hope that it will do the trick finally. In any case, I will never ever do early immersion again! Immersion is great *after* B2. Otherwise it's a good recipe to stay at B2 forever. B2 production might be more than ok for some purposes - travel for example -, but for living in the country it's actually terrible. If you speak at B2 level people are likely to treat you like a moron. I do understand everything I could possibly hear on the street and yet people who don't know me dumb down what they say as soon as I open my mouth. Also, I'm not sure what's supposed to be fun about speaking worse than a 5yr old and being treated accordingly ...! I especially hate it when people who dumb down their speech then tell me that I speak Spanish well. They usually do so in the same tone that they use on 5yr olds and dogs :? So frustrating!

(Note: I have added the bold emphasis above)
While I don't doubt the poster's observations of their experience with Spanish in Spain, I think there are a couple of points that we must look at when talking about immersion. First of all, hanging around with other foreigners in or from the language school is not conducive to getting the most out of being in the country.

Second, the essence of the immersion experience is learning in the language. At a certain point, the language has to become the medium of instruction. The poster doesn't mention taking classes - it could be in a university - or some other institution other than the language school. Much of the discussion earlier here was about students coming to the United States to study in English. If similarly the poster were registered in let's say a Spanish literature course - just one course not even a program - and had to read 10 books and write two papers in Spanish, their Spanish would of course make a huge leap.

Let's say the poster got a job in a Spanish company and had to write e-mails and interact with customers in Spanish all while surrounded by Spanish-speaking colleagues, what would happen? First of all, there would be a huge incentive to improve their Spanish, perhaps with a tutor or a high-level class. And then of course the constant practice in the real world would do wonders.

So hanging around with other foreigners in Spain doesn't really qualify as immersion the way I see it. When I look at all the advantages of being in the language, I wouldn't worry about acquiring bad habits. If one is confronted with the necessity of having to speak the language properly for professional reasons, the bad habits can be dealt with.
0 x

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3309
Contact:

Re: Language Shaming

Postby aokoye » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:06 pm

There has also been at least one study that showed that hone country immersion situations (think Middlebury's summer lang programs) are more effective than study abroad programs of the same length. I'll find the study I'm thinking of when I get home. The researcher provided reasoning that I think is pretty sound despite some criticisms that I have with the methodology.
1 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

Theodisce
Orange Belt
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:18 am
Location: Krakauer Baggersee
Languages: Polish (native), speaks: English, Czech, German, Russian, French, Spanish, Italian. Writes in: Latin, Portuguese. Understands: Ancient Greek, Modern Greek, Slovak, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Serbian/Croatian. Studies for passive competence in: Romanian, Slovene, Bulgarian.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1435
x 471

Re: Language Shaming

Postby Theodisce » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:22 pm

s_allard wrote:Second, the essence of the immersion experience is learning in the language. At a certain point, the language has to become the medium of instruction. The poster doesn't mention taking classes - it could be in a university - or some other institution other than the language school. Much of the discussion earlier here was about students coming to the United States to study in English. If similarly the poster were registered in let's say a Spanish literature course - just one course not even a program - and had to read 10 books and write two papers in Spanish, their Spanish would of course make a huge leap.


All or most of it can be actually achieved without living in a country where the target language is spoken, provided there is no shortage of materials. And if you study multiple languages, it is very difficult to reenact the scenario you propose more than few times.
1 x
BCS 400+ : 48 / 50
RUS 2800+ : 74 / 100
SPA 1500+ : 128 / 100
CZE 1900+ : 94 / 50

s_allard
Blue Belt
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:01 pm
Location: Canada
Languages: French (N), English (N), Spanish (C2 Cert.), German (B2 Cert)
x 2300

Re: Language Shaming

Postby s_allard » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:54 pm

Considering that this forum is about language learning, I do not doubt that learners can do great things without setting foot in the country of the target language. We talk about this all the time, and heaven knows that there is no shortage of products that will teach you a language in record time in the comfort of your home or your car. And there are great courses and institutions that do excellent work. But let me remind readers that the discussion centered specifically on students studying in the language in institutions in the country, i.e. the US.

So, the choice isn't whether to take a 6-week intensive French program at Middlebury College or 6 weeks in a language school on the French Riviera. I'd personally take the Riviera any day but I have no doubt the Middlebury gives excellent results. The immersion option is more like spending a couple of years studying in a foreign institution and making friends with native speakers.

I can only say that every excellent C2-level speaker of conversational French, English or Spanish has had some kind of immersion-like experience. It may be studying at the American University in Lebanon, living in France for a few years, studying at an English-language school in Colombia. There's always a story.
1 x

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3309
Contact:

Re: Language Shaming

Postby aokoye » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:29 pm

s_allard wrote:So, the choice isn't whether to take a 6-week intensive French program at Middlebury College or 6 weeks in a language school on the French Riviera. I'd personally take the Riviera any day but I have no doubt the Middlebury gives excellent results. The immersion option is more like spending a couple of years studying in a foreign institution and making friends with native speakers.

Except that one can easily argue that an immersion option is spending 6 weeks studying in France. That is immersion assuming that most if not all of your classes are in French. It's short term immersion, but it is immersion nonetheless. It might not fit under your definition of immersion but it does fit under the definition of many other people and institutions.

Regarding article I mentioned earlier. Here's the link to the abstract. The full dissertation can be downloaded from that page as well. The dissertation doesn't focus solely on what we're discussing here but the reasons why students can be more successful in domestic foreign language programs than international ones include a lower affective filter (I don't actually think Godfrey uses that term but that's effectively what she's saying), being in an environment where they are forced to speak the TL, and the fact that the learners are around the teachers all. the. time.
0 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

User avatar
blaurebell
Blue Belt
Posts: 840
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:24 pm
Location: Spain
Languages: German (N), English (C2), Spanish (B2-C1), French (B2+ passive), Italian (A2), Russian (Beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3235
x 2240

Re: Language Shaming

Postby blaurebell » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:54 pm

s_allard wrote:First of all, hanging around with other foreigners in or from the language school is not conducive to getting the most out of being in the country.


1. I don't appreciate it when I'm being excluded from the discussion. This is what you do when you talk about me and my experiences in the third person. And I find that more infuriating than the "good dog" praise I get for my mediocre Spanish.
2. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't base your speculations on assumptions that are as far away as possible from reality. When I speak about immersion I mean immersion. I was living with a woman who didn't speak a word of English and neither do 95% of the people who live in this town. And if they do, it's barely even recognisable as such! Also, my mum worked in a library for the past 30+ years and had to speak, read and write every day. B2 production is perfectly sufficient for that.
3. You're suddenly speaking about B2 activities, working in a company and university courses. Before you insisted on early immersion. I'm sorry, early immersion makes it just so much harder to get to language skills where people at a company or a university would even take you seriously. It's like suggesting to go for a nice long run with a broken leg.

Come to think of it, did you ever do early immersion? I have and I will never do it again *for a reason*. It's simply inefficient for production skills beyond "Where is the hotel?" and "I would like some chicken, please." It's great for listening comprehension, but that's pretty much all I got out of it.
3 x
: 20 / 100 Дэвид Эддингс - В поисках камня
: 14325 / 35000 LWT Known

: 17 / 55 FSI Spanish Basic
: 100 / 116 GdUdE B
: 8 / 72 Duolingo reverse Spanish -> German

s_allard
Blue Belt
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:01 pm
Location: Canada
Languages: French (N), English (N), Spanish (C2 Cert.), German (B2 Cert)
x 2300

Re: Language Shaming

Postby s_allard » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:21 am

blaurebell wrote:
s_allard wrote:First of all, hanging around with other foreigners in or from the language school is not conducive to getting the most out of being in the country.


1. I don't appreciate it when I'm being excluded from the discussion. This is what you do when you talk about me and my experiences in the third person. And I find that more infuriating than the "good dog" praise I get for my mediocre Spanish.
2. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't base your speculations on assumptions that are as far away as possible from reality. When I speak about immersion I mean immersion. I was living with a woman who didn't speak a word of English and neither do 95% of the people who live in this town. And if they do, it's barely even recognisable as such! Also, my mum worked in a library for the past 30+ years and had to speak, read and write every day. B2 production is perfectly sufficient for that.
3. You're suddenly speaking about B2 activities, working in a company and university courses. Before you insisted on early immersion. I'm sorry, early immersion makes it just so much harder to get to language skills where people at a company or a university would even take you seriously. It's like suggesting to go for a nice long run with a broken leg.

Come to think of it, did you ever do early immersion? I have and I will never do it again *for a reason*. It's simply inefficient for production skills beyond "Where is the hotel?" and "I would like some chicken, please." It's great for listening comprehension, but that's pretty much all I got out of it.

Well, obviously, immersion doesn't work for everybody. If taking multiple courses the country, spending over a year in a village where English is hardly spoken, plus living with a person who did not speak English leads to not being able to say more than "Where is the hotel?" and "I would like some chicken, please", then immersion is certainly not for you. In this case, it's probably much better to stay at home, or at least in the home country, and then go to Spain only as a last resort.

But we all are different. I would die to be able to spend a year at a Spanish university taking that Spanish literature course I mentioned, living with a Spanish person who spoke no English and in a town with no English. My Spanish would make a quantum leap. I'd love to do it now and I would have loved to be able to do it at the age of 17.

Frankly, if my parents had been in the diplomatic corps and I had lived in China for two years at the age of 8, two years in Russia at the age of 10 and two years in Poland at the age of 12, I won't say that I'd be proficient in all those languages today but I'd have bases on which to build. Unfortunately, it was not the case and here I am many years later confronted with the reality that I'll never really get far in those languages because it's just too late. Give me immersion anytime. Early, late, in the middle. I don't care. The more the better.
0 x

User avatar
blaurebell
Blue Belt
Posts: 840
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:24 pm
Location: Spain
Languages: German (N), English (C2), Spanish (B2-C1), French (B2+ passive), Italian (A2), Russian (Beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3235
x 2240

Re: Language Shaming

Postby blaurebell » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:13 pm

s_allard wrote:Well, obviously, immersion doesn't work for everybody. If taking multiple courses the country, spending over a year in a village where English is hardly spoken, plus living with a person who did not speak English leads to not being able to say more than "Where is the hotel?" and "I would like some chicken, please", then immersion is certainly not for you. In this case, it's probably much better to stay at home, or at least in the home country, and then go to Spain only as a last resort.


Actually, I can say much more than those phrases, but those are the kind of phrases that I can say without mistakes. I can make myself understood, sure, I can even have discussions about complex topics, nobody switches to English even when they can, but I make mistakes all the time. The problem is that when you continually try to speak at a level beyond your actual capabilities you will get used to using the wrong tenses, to wrong prepositions and using the wrong words for the context. Also, 5 year olds can use a present subjunctive whereas I will stumble over those in certain sentence constructions because I always used regular present tense instead when I didn't even know yet what a subjunctive was. Simply bad habits acquired through having to communicate way too complex thoughts without the appropriate grammar concepts for the task.

I'm not saying that early immersion doesn't work at all. It's really a fast way to learn a language up to a certain level. I have actually never met anyone who failed completely with it. For me my early immersion experiment was the first time that I managed to get to a stage where I could read a book extensively after only 10 weeks. That's really super fast. It was also much less painless than the grammar translation method I was tortured with in school and at university with English and Italian. Also my listening comprehension benefited from it, probably the only C1 skill I have. However, the question is where you want to go with the language. If you just want to speak to natives, get your meaning across and do any job that doesn't require high level writing or speaking skills - service professions, computer programming, etc - early immersion is really a super fast way to learn a lot in a very short time. However, when your aim is to study at a university or to do any kind of academic teaching or research in the TL - my own background - it's just a recipe for failure. I am much better off with my current approach of Assmil + intensive reading + FSI/grammar drills + writing and only then starting to speak.

If B2 is enough - and it is for a lot of people - then early immersion is probably the most painless and fun method available. However, getting beyond B2 after early immersion will probably require 2x or 3x the grammar drilling just to grind out all the silly fossilised mistakes acquired by early speaking. If you need C1 or C2, then the best time for immersion is at B2 after lots of input and grammar. In the latter case immersion is absolutely fantastic and a great way to get to C1 and beyond without much effort. So, I actually believe in immersion in general. Just not in early immersion!
1 x
: 20 / 100 Дэвид Эддингс - В поисках камня
: 14325 / 35000 LWT Known

: 17 / 55 FSI Spanish Basic
: 100 / 116 GdUdE B
: 8 / 72 Duolingo reverse Spanish -> German


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests