Language Shaming

General discussion about learning languages
Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Language Shaming

Postby Cavesa » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:08 pm

Politicians are being mocked or shamed all the time, it is part of the job. It's one of the ways people can deal with the frustrations politics in general causes, it is a needed mirror to it, and anyone going for the career should be prepared for it. But there are two more things:

Speaking English has become a requirement for the vast majority of the society and even for jobs that don't need it much or at all. It has become an easy way for the HR to throw a part of the scary huge CV pile to the dust bin. So, if even a factory worker is required to learn English, how can a politician be horrible at it?

And there is the practical aspect too. The politicians need it. Yes, the official sittings are translated but tons of stuff are being discussed "informally", while the politicians are taking a coffee or meeting anywhere and so on, plus there is the social networking that is part of the job and so on. Many Czech politicians are obviously bound to just sit in the corner, because they can't speak a foreign language. And knowing a foreign language comes with an insight to the culture, and it is a sign of openmindness and education. It makes a bad impression, when a politician coming to contact with foreigners professionally is monolingual (and that one native language happens to be one noone abroad speaks).

I am not against politician langauge shaming, unless the politicians are local ones as those simply don't need the skill. But when I see a politician talking in horrible English abroad (and the English is their best langauge), I simply think such a person hasn't fulfilled the basic requirements for the job and shouldn't have even considered a candidature. Unfortunately, it is impossible to kick those people out of their comfortable seats, so the joking is what we are left with.
2 x

User avatar
Brian
Yellow Belt
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:28 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: English (Native). German (fluent).
x 164
Contact:

Re: Bad English Shaming

Postby Brian » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:02 pm

Longinus wrote:
Most English speakers are used to hearing all sorts of strange accents and syntax, and I think we're pretty tolerant as a result. I also have encountered this phenomenon of non-native speakers making fun of other non-native speakers' English, and I find it very strange.


I remember reading that the Norwegian head of the Nobel Prize organisation was roundly mocked in his homeland for his poor English after making a speech at the awards ceremony. I looked it up online and understood everything perfectly first time.
2 x

Speakeasy
x 7658

Re: Language Shaming

Postby Speakeasy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:23 pm

Cavesa wrote:Politicians are being mocked or shamed all the time, it is part of the job...
While I am confident that politicians do not enjoy being mocked, criticized, shamed, misunderstood, misjudged and unjustly treated by the citizenry and the media, they can enjoy the comforting thought that they are not being ignored ... when that happens, they have just cause to be concerned!
5 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Language Shaming

Postby Cavesa » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:23 pm

Speakeasy wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Politicians are being mocked or shamed all the time, it is part of the job...
While I am confident that politicians do not enjoy being mocked, criticized, shamed, misunderstood, misjudged and unjustly treated by the citizenry and the media, they can enjoy the comforting thought that they are not being ignored ... when that happens, they have just cause to be concerned!


I never said they should enjoy it. They just need to take it as part of the job, just like a doctor needs to accept a lot of disgusing things coming with a human body as part of the job, or a fireman has to deal with some smoke.

They are well paid, don't forget that. And being a politician is a bit like being any other kind of celebrity. You are right, being ignored is worse than being known for something unflattering. And don't forget that there is a part of voters, who finds it patriotic, proud, and impressive that a politician refuses to learn a foreign language. We have recently had one party target these voters by proposing a law that would force everything in the country to be translated, even in absolutely ridiculous cases. It could actually go as far as calling Harry Potter Jindra Hrnčíř. Or perhaps the detergent Vanish would have to be called Zmiz. And Nutella would probably have to be Oříškovka. And parkings known as "kiss and ride" with K+S on the shield would have to be Polib a jeď, P+J. As if it wasn't enough that Doctor Who is in Czech named Pán času=Time lord. No wonder I didn't recognize it in the program :-D It sounds like a documentary.

I really don't think they need need much of sympathy fabout it. Polititians shamed for things like gender, age (both "too" young and old), sexual orientation, family history, or tatoos, those definitely should be defended in a healthy society. But failure to comply with a logical expectation coming with a well paid elite job, that is different. People don't get the offices against their will, they are preparing for the jobs for a long time. Filling a basic hole in their education should be part of it.
2 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: Language Shaming

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:40 pm

I will relish in the day English is no longer expected so widely across the world/Europe. Of course nor do I want another language to spread as widely (unless simultaneously perhaps). It would be so nice to live in a world with more lungiustic diversity. Yet another instance in which I need a time machine. Surely someone's got one somewhere? I'm getting tired of asking. It's really not much to ask! :x
3 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Language Shaming

Postby Cavesa » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:18 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:I will relish in the day English is no longer expected so widely across the world/Europe. Of course nor do I want another language to spread as widely (unless simultaneously perhaps). It would be so nice to live in a world with more lungiustic diversity. Yet another instance in which I need a time machine. Surely someone's got one somewhere? I'm getting tired of asking. It's really not much to ask! :x


I definitely don't think they should all speak English and I agree it is not a fortunate situation. But asking them to speak one important language is not too much. Two for a minister for foreign affaires. And they should choose freely, unless they want an office tied to relations with a particular country. For example, the head of an institution for Czech-Chinese economical relationships (can't remember the official name of the institution now) should speak Mandarin at least to some level (what does he do, when they talk among themselves in the room?), but he speaks only very very bad English. Sure, he gets an interpreter for the taxpayers' money, but that is not the same as talking to people directly. Some common sense should be used here.
1 x

Online
User avatar
tastyonions
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1574
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:39 pm
Location: Dallas, TX
Languages: EN (N), FR, ES, DE, IT, PT, NL, EL
x 3857

Re: Language Shaming

Postby tastyonions » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:18 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:I will relish in the day English is no longer expected so widely across the world/Europe.

I would be surprised if that happened. English has picked up its own momentum and people all across the world who may never even have met a native speaker are using it to bridge language boundaries.

I read an amusing theory to the effect that one reason the ideology of "target-language only" teaching is so popular is that it lets legions of young monoglot anglophones travel all over the world to teach their native tongue without ever having to take on the terrible burden of learning the local language.

:lol:
2 x

User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3657
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German, Italian
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian; Romanian, Galician; Danish, Swedish; Estonian
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Czech, Latvian
x 5179
Contact:

Re: Language Shaming

Postby Serpent » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:38 am

Just like with regular learners, the evaluation often focuses on the superficial factors like pronunciation. Sure, it has to be understandable, but it doesn't need to be native-like or pleasant.
As language learners I think it's a good idea for us to attempt to make these discussions more productive :D Politicians are a great example for those who still believe that you need to travel or spend a lot of money or whatever in order to learn a language.
3 x
LyricsTraining now has Finnish and Polish :)
Corrections welcome

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Language Shaming

Postby Cavesa » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:48 am

tastyonions wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:I will relish in the day English is no longer expected so widely across the world/Europe.

I would be surprised if that happened. English has picked up its own momentum and people all across the world who may never even have met a native speaker are using it to bridge language boundaries.

I read an amusing theory to the effect that one reason the ideology of "target-language only" teaching is so popular is that it lets legions of young monoglot anglophones travel all over the world to teach their native tongue without ever having to take on the terrible burden of learning the local language.

:lol:


Unfortunately, those "teachers" are quite the norm. But they can still be good (but many are not, as they are teaching just to get the lifestyle, not to trully give knowledge and skills to the students). My little sister has recently had conversation classes (unfortunately obligatory, provided by her school) with a foreigner. Sounds great, doesn't it? Well, the foreigner happened to be a Croatian student with bad English, especially the pronunciation. My sister understands natives quite well. She couldn't understand that woman and was getting scolded (and getting a few bad grades too) for it. She told me some of the mistakes the woman was making, and making the kids repeat (and insisted on them repeating the stuff with the mistakes). But still, parents had no say in the matter, or perhaps they don't mind low quality education, ok, but that is improbable at this school. The resulst? The kids have very probably learnt some new mistakes and certainly haven't improved at the aspects you want the most from conversation classes. My sister is less and less motivated to learn English (the regular classes and disaster are no source of motivation either). The school got more bragging rights "we are so awesome and elite, all our students get conversation classes with Erasmus students!" and the incompetent girl with too high confidence has got an awesome line to her CV, that might open her the doors to damaging many more learners in future. I only wish my sister's class were extremely spoiled and hostile brats, to scare her away from any teaching aspirations, but they are unfortunately too well educated.

Yes, it is one of the main reasons why English is getting more and more powerful. Teaching English is becoming the lifestyle dream of too many young people all over the globe. Native and not, competent and not, interested in actually teaching or not, educated or just with a short English teaching course or not even that. No other language is likely to create such an army. If German and French speaking countries trully wanted to strengthen these languages within the EU (let's start small), this is exactly what they'd need to create, at least on a smaller scale. Make teachers numerous, visible, and easily available, flood the schools in other countries with them, get bonus points for them treating the local cultures with more respect. And make it just as easy for foreigners to get something like a CELTA. I don't know about German, but the French equivalent I found took a year and is was being taught only in France. There is so much of lost potential for the PR of the languages, just because the "teacher" lifestyle dream is available only in English.

......
I wrote that too slowly. After Serpent's post: politicians are expected to be clever, educated, and an example of successful people, that is the ideal we hope to see (among other qualities). Whether they are or not is another thing. I think it would be awesome if this, what you have just mentioned, changed and they showed the population "look, it is definitely possible to learn a language at a higher age/while working full time/on one's own, I did it to better do my job". It could be trully inspirational, much more than langauge school adds filled with photos of laughing teenagers.

Unfortunately, I know of only one politian (among the czech ones), who is a very positive language learning example. The rest are either "I don't speak it, I wasn't taught at school" or "look how elite schools did I go to" kinds (the latter much less numerous). But this woman wanted to learn Italian to communicate with a friend. If I remember correctly, they were just penpals, it was ages ago during the communism. No travelling, no modern tools. Just one coursebook for self-teaching learners was on the market and perhaps it was the only one even for schools. So, this woman learnt the content really well. She sticked to it, finished the course, used it as she could. And she spoke with the friend in person after the revolution. I wish we had many examples like this.
3 x

Speakeasy
x 7658

Re: Language Shaming

Postby Speakeasy » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:25 am

While some posters -- myself included, above, but for comedic effect only -- have strayed from the central topic of this discussion, I believe that the oft-expressed theme by PeterMollenburg (regretting, once again, the apparent hegemony of the English language) requires some expansion. In my view, since at least the 1980’s and perhaps earlier, there has been a trend towards what-I-would-describe-as a “mono culture” in the economically-developed nations.

Several decades ago, a visitor to many parts of the developed world would have encountered clearly-evident signs that one was in a foreign land. The differences encountered were not limited to the language of the host country. Although English was nowhere as widespread as it is today, there were also genuine differences in food, fashion, restaurants and just about every external manifestation of the host country’s culture. A visitor could enjoy the experience of being “truly a foreigner” whilst visiting much of the industrialized world.

In the last few decades, we have been experiencing “much more” than the "mere" hegemony of the English language -- by the way, would you be truly more content if some language other than English were achieving linguistic hegemony? -- we have also been experiencing what-I-would-call the “Starbucksisation” of the economically-developed nations. Local culture has been debased to the level of folklorist souvenir items that were most likely produced in Southeast Asia. Everyone wears the same clothing. Everyone eats the same foods. The restaurants and cafés in Berlin are scarcely different from those in London, Paris, Rome, New York, San Francisco, Moscow, Cape Town, Vancouver, T’rana (Toronto for the uninitiated) and in every other major city on the planet.

Whether we like it or not, we have all been adopting -- at the very least a "secondary" or "parallel" – common culture.

Now that’s what I call a digression!
4 x


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: nathancrow77 and 2 guests