Language Shaming

[sjintje]

Most English speakers are used to hearing all sorts of strange accents and syntax, and I think we're pretty tolerant as a result.

Yeah right.
I have not heard French or Germans shaming Melania Trump's English.

That's presumably because "Trump".

On the other hand, the Swedish Chef did used to get mocked a lot.

[Serpent]

......
I wrote that too slowly. After Serpent's post: politicians are expected to be clever, educated, and an example of successful people, that is the ideal we hope to see (among other qualities). Whether they are or not is another thing. I think it would be awesome if this, what you have just mentioned, changed and they showed the population "look, it is definitely possible to learn a language at a higher age/while working full time/on one's own, I did it to better do my job". It could be trully inspirational, much more than langauge school adds filled with photos of laughing teenagers.

Unfortunately, I know of only one politian (among the czech ones), who is a very positive language learning example.

Oh to clarify, I didn't mean most politicians are a positive example I just meant that instead of joining the bashing it's more productive to point out the privileges they've had - money, travel, studying abroad or whatever else. The native language bubble is even worse for them than for common people.

(It should also be noted that the awesomeness of knowing "a little" applies less to politicians. With them it's closer to all or nothing, although they could at least handle the basic pleasantries before switching to English or resorting to interpreters)

[Cavesa]

......
I wrote that too slowly. After Serpent's post: politicians are expected to be clever, educated, and an example of successful people, that is the ideal we hope to see (among other qualities). Whether they are or not is another thing. I think it would be awesome if this, what you have just mentioned, changed and they showed the population "look, it is definitely possible to learn a language at a higher age/while working full time/on one's own, I did it to better do my job". It could be trully inspirational, much more than langauge school adds filled with photos of laughing teenagers.

Unfortunately, I know of only one politian (among the czech ones), who is a very positive language learning example.

Oh to clarify, I didn't mean most politicians are a positive example I just meant that instead of joining the bashing it's more productive to point out the privileges they've had - money, travel, studying abroad or whatever else. The native language bubble is even worse for them than for common people.

(It should also be noted that the awesomeness of knowing "a little" applies less to politicians. With them it's closer to all or nothing, although they could at least handle the basic pleasantries before switching to English or resorting to interpreters)

Their priviledge is making it much easier for them to learn a foreign language. Half the region near the German border would immediately go to Germany for work instead of staying poor in the problematic region, but they don't have the money to invest in learning the language (and not everyone is able to self-study, and that is not meant as an offense at all). They would love to have the money and opportunity but they don't. That is just an example of language learning being a luxury. Those people are getting English classes of various quality at school and would need to pay anything more useful than that. And here are politicians, paid by these poorer people too, who really could do with a foreign language for their well paid job, and they simply don't bother. The priviledge is not a reason to sympathise with the monolingual politicians, it is just one more reason to hold their incompetence against them.

The priviledge of elite schools and politicians coming out of them is quite not existant in the Czech Republic and many other countries. And most times, elite school = a school where people definitely do learn a foreign language or even study in it. Those people wouldn't be Czech monolinguals. It may become an issue in future, when people my age enter politics in large numbers. For the generation of our parents, there were no elite schools. Every university was "elite", as most people were not allowed to study there.

Don't forget that while a Russian or an American or a French speaking politician may have a problem leaving the native language bubble, there is no such a thing for a Czech native (and native of many other unimportant languages). Some of our politicians can't even get to the English bubble! They simply rely on translators 100% of the time, which is definitely not practical.

I wouldn't underestimate the value of not that perfect skills in a foreign language. Even the smalltalk and such stuff participates on making a good impression and networking, which is part of the job. And speaking on a B1/B2 level is different from not speaking and understanding at all in the moments without a translator. And it would suffice for a lot of parts of the job, just like a doctor knowing the medical language doesn't need to be C2 in general. Plus just the fact of learning a foreign language opens minds and gives other perspectives, which is an important byproduct.

[zaneisdayton]

This is one topic that is very interesting to me because it seems as if English is almost a "must-learn" language in today's world. When there are non-native English speakers, specifically people in power, it is almost deemed mandatory to know the English language. The English language has almost created a monopoly in the world, referring to language, due to the influence it has across many nations. In most countries, especially Europe, students are, for the most part mandated to learn English with sometimes an additional language as a requirement.

When someone cannot speak English, especially in a higher power role, people may think that since they cannot speak English, that they do not know any better. Even with English not being the most spoken language in the world (roughly 3rd), people believe it is necessary. Why do they have to learn English and if they do not learn English, then why should they be laughed or mocked at?

A great example of this is the United States. Most language requirements are roughly two semesters of a language in high school and all you have to do is pass with a "C." Then you can go to a cocktail party ten years from then and count to twenty in Spanish, and yet people are actually impressed, they aren't mocking you because all you can do is say profane words, count to twenty and say "cat." My personal opinion is that every country has their own language and that is what separates us from one another, language gives us our foundation of culture. Yet when we are mocked at because we don't speak English, such as some examples given, is degrading. There are some policymakers and power figures in the United States who only speak English because somehow and somewhere, we believe that everyone has to speak English and there are no if's, and's or but's about it.

Language learning, in my opinion should be a necessity (or else I wouldn't have found this forum, lol), but there should not have to be a designated second language that someone has to learn to avoid mockery and degradation.

[Serpent]

Don't forget that while a Russian or an American or a French speaking politician may have a problem leaving the native language bubble, there is no such a thing for a Czech native (and native of many other unimportant languages). Some of our politicians can't even get to the English bubble! They simply rely on translators 100% of the time, which is definitely not practical.

To me using an interpreter counts as being in your native language bubble

[Cavesa]

This is one topic that is very interesting to me because it seems as if English is almost a "must-learn" language in today's world. When there are non-native English speakers, specifically people in power, it is almost deemed mandatory to know the English language. The English language has almost created a monopoly in the world, referring to language, due to the influence it has across many nations. In most countries, especially Europe, students are, for the most part mandated to learn English with sometimes an additional language as a requirement.

When someone cannot speak English, especially in a higher power role, people may think that since they cannot speak English, that they do not know any better. Even with English not being the most spoken language in the world (roughly 3rd), people believe it is necessary. Why do they have to learn English and if they do not learn English, then why should they be laughed or mocked at?

A great example of this is the United States. Most language requirements are roughly two semesters of a language in high school and all you have to do is pass with a "C." Then you can go to a cocktail party ten years from then and count to twenty in Spanish, and yet people are actually impressed, they aren't mocking you because all you can do is say profane words, count to twenty and say "cat." My personal opinion is that every country has their own language and that is what separates us from one another, language gives us our foundation of culture. Yet when we are mocked at because we don't speak English, such as some examples given, is degrading. There are some policymakers and power figures in the United States who only speak English because somehow and somewhere, we believe that everyone has to speak English and there are no if's, and's or but's about it.

Language learning, in my opinion should be a necessity (or else I wouldn't have found this forum, lol), but there should not have to be a designated second language that someone has to learn to avoid mockery and degradation.

I agree English shouldn't be the one designated language, there are other options too, and I think noone in the thread expressed that only English should be the only option. There are others, German or French should be common options in Europe, that is just an example, there are other regionally important options. And I am not even gonna start about the fact that the choice of one's foreign language is often taken as a cultural and political stance. The stereotypes may sometimes be harmful,but they are simply present.

But you are looking at it from the priviledged anglophone perspective. A monolingual Czech is bound to be isolated, just like a monolingual speaker of any other worthless language of a small unimportant country. It is the same in all the other areas of life. Noone is ever gonna learn Czech for business reasons, unless they are coming to the country, and usually not even then, very few will learn it for the culture (I am still surprised some people do, pleasantly surprised, but still surprised). Therefore not knowing a foreign language is considered a big failure for people educated after 1989, and usually for the older ones with means to learn too. It's like not knowing the basics of maths or geography.

This is the price we pay for stupidity of our ancestors, who decided to resuscitate/exhumate a dying language used only by the low social spheres in the 19th century. They should have let it die out. Officially, they are the heroes who awoke the nation, all the kids learn about them. In reality, I suppose the group of writers was simply too bad to succeed on the bigger germanic market, so they created their own, small one, and for some reason a few millions of people followed the crazy idea, as chopping nations to pieces was a trend back then.

Yes, an american counting to twenty in Spanish may be considered well educated. Someone with a small native language is not, especially a person under 45. Noone in the thread suggested that anyone not knowing a foreign language should be shamed, no. But when it comes to politicians, it is a reason for shame, if they don't have such an important skill even on the level expected from every high school graduate. They want to be the elite, they want to have all the benefits coming with the job, so they should fulfill the basic expectations.

Sure, it is not good English has such a monopoly. It should be normal for other big languages having some pride, that would force even the anglophones to learn at least one language to a useful level. But that is not the issue of this thread. For the non-anglophone rest of the world, being monolingual is simply a big personal failure, when you aspire for such a prestigious job, which being a politian at the national level or above (like the EU parliament) definitely is.

To illustrate it: Imagine everyone was required to know five works of Shakespeare really well, in order to graduate high school. Even workers never needing any literature for the job would need to include good knowledge of at least three in their CVs, in order to pass the first filter and get to the interview, where they would be asked about Romeo and Juliette and Othello on top of questions actually related to the skills needed for the job. And here go some politicians, saying: "ah, Shakespeare, yes a very important author. What he wrote? I think Hamlet... or was it Damlet?".

[tarvos]

I remember one of our newspapers French-shaming one of our ministers of Foreign Affairs after he succeeded Frans Timmermans (who was often shamed for being excessively vain, but also well known as a polyglot).

[mouse]

"Shaming" here is a very fashionable use of the word. I understand why we shouldn't "fat shame" and "slut shame", as the weight and sexual habits of others are none of our business. But abilities aren't really the same. Yes, it's rude when people mock the English of footballers when they're interviewed on TV. But they're not paid for their English, they're paid for their skills on the pitch, so it's harmless really. But if we shouldn't "shame" people for their poor language skills, then surely we shouldn't "shame" them for being terrible footballers, or lawyers, or mathematicians. And I guess I'm now "language shaming" the original author by suggesting their use of the word shame is wrong.

Also, a lot of the time, when we mock the way people speak, we do so affectionately. Take former London Mayor Boris Johnson. Johnson speaks in a way that immediately communicates his education and class background, but he also stumbles over his words in an amusingly bumbling way. No one really thinks that makes him look dumb, but they find it endearing and funny. He's mocked for the way he speaks, but — and despite being a pretty divisive politician — rarely maliciously. I think something similar happens when we listen to non-native speakers. Their mistakes are strange and endearing, and for some reason they're fun to imitate.

The fact that incorrect grammar and unusual word choice sounds funny to native speakers should be considered as a valuable resource for language learners. Native speakers not only immediately know when something's wrong, but it sounds so wrong as to be absurd. Getting to the point where you can find someone's grammatical errors amusing naturally feels good, although maybe language learners should have some empathy for their fellow sufferers students.

[reineke]

"Shaming" here is a very fashionable use of the word. I understand why we shouldn't "fat shame" and "slut shame",...But if we shouldn't "shame" people for their poor language skills, then surely we shouldn't "shame" them for being terrible footballers, or lawyers, or mathematicians. And I guess I'm now "language shaming" the original author by suggesting their use of the word shame is wrong.

Also, a lot of the time, when we mock the way people speak, we do so affectionately...
The fact that incorrect grammar and unusual word choice sounds funny to native speakers should be considered as a valuable resource for language learners. Native speakers not only immediately know when something's wrong, but it sounds so wrong as to be absurd.

I can see a person changing profession but not his own skin.

I changed the title from Bad English shaming to language shaming to include other themes. It's up to you what you want to do with the thread. "Shaming" normally does not include affectionate jokes or helpful native speakers so I believe you may be misinterpreting what we're discussing here. Jokes may escalate into harassment. In any case, many of the people being made fun of here and their critics were not native speakers. Elsewhere I've posted videos of Italians making fun of public personalities for their use of Italian.

The only alleviating factor I've heard so far is that it's OK to shame politicians. However, people being shamed do not have to be public figures.

A person may be shamed for speaking "his own language" poorly, for making mistakes when speaking the language of the wider community etc. Everyday people get shamed for their language use just because they're from a different region. The expression was not coined by me:

Sociolinguistics research: Application and Impact

"discourse of language shaming"
"...gender and language shaming"

The Career Trajectories of English Language Teachers
"instances of language shaming"

Bilingual Education in the 21st Century: A Global Perspective
...contributes to the linguistic stigmatization and language- shaming

Honoring Richard Ruiz and his Work on Language Planning and Bilingual Education
"Many experienced language shaming throughout their lives"

Opinion, Prejudice and Spanish-Shaming

[Serpent]

Language shaming is also often proxy for class shaming and racism.

Oh and (not directed at any htlal member) be consistent. If you tell someone to "stop complaining" and become a politician in order to solve this or that social problem, don't shame them when they do just that. The "deal with it" attitude sure discourages many from going into politics...