English as lingua franca

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Marais
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English as lingua franca

Postby Marais » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:13 am

DaveBee wrote:That said, for practical purposes the world seems to have chosen English as the default 2nd language. I don't see that train stopping anytime soon.

English is the lingua franca because most media is in that language. Big film industry, TV, music, news...if we look at the big picture i think it's fair to say that most of that is in English and with the internet, smart phones etc if people in foreign countries want to consume most of it they have to learn English.

I think it's probably that simple.
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Re: French Group 2016 - Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveBee » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:41 am

Marais wrote:
DaveBee wrote:That said, for practical purposes the world seems to have chosen English as the default 2nd language. I don't see that train stopping anytime soon.

English is the lingua franca because most media is in that language. Big film industry, TV, music, news...if we look at the big picture i think it's fair to say that most of that is in English and with the internet, smart phones etc if people in foreign countries want to consume most of it they have to learn English.

I think it's probably that simple.
One article I came across recently mentioned the need for farmers to learn english, as fertiliser manufacturers are never going to print their instructions in minor_language_X
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Marais
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Re: French Group 2016 - Les Voyageurs

Postby Marais » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:11 pm

DaveBee wrote:
Marais wrote:
DaveBee wrote:That said, for practical purposes the world seems to have chosen English as the default 2nd language. I don't see that train stopping anytime soon.

English is the lingua franca because most media is in that language. Big film industry, TV, music, news...if we look at the big picture i think it's fair to say that most of that is in English and with the internet, smart phones etc if people in foreign countries want to consume most of it they have to learn English.

I think it's probably that simple.
One article I came across recently mentioned the need for farmers to learn english, as fertiliser manufacturers are never going to print their instructions in minor_language_X

Well that's one tiny example but most people don't learn a language for economic reasons. Hundreds of millions of teens/young adults don't learn English to trade with the US, they learn it to watch Breaking Bad and complain about Donald Trump.
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Re: French Group 2016 - Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveBee » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:13 pm

Marais wrote:
DaveBee wrote:
Marais wrote:
DaveBee wrote:That said, for practical purposes the world seems to have chosen English as the default 2nd language. I don't see that train stopping anytime soon.

English is the lingua franca because most media is in that language. Big film industry, TV, music, news...if we look at the big picture i think it's fair to say that most of that is in English and with the internet, smart phones etc if people in foreign countries want to consume most of it they have to learn English.

I think it's probably that simple.
One article I came across recently mentioned the need for farmers to learn english, as fertiliser manufacturers are never going to print their instructions in minor_language_X

Well that's one tiny example but most people don't learn a language for economic reasons. Hundreds of millions of teens/young adults don't learn English to trade with the US, they learn it to watch Breaking Bad and complain about Donald Trump.
It was the reason given by a government minister for promoting english language learning in their country. Minority languages do not get catered to by large manufacturers. So while a sack of fertiliser/pesticide will have instructions printed on it, they will only be in a limited number of languages.

I'm sure the same problem carries over into other industries; medicines packaging, technical repair manuals for machinery etc.
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Marais
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Re: French Group 2016 - Les Voyageurs

Postby Marais » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:07 pm

DaveBee wrote:
Marais wrote:
DaveBee wrote:
Marais wrote:
DaveBee wrote:That said, for practical purposes the world seems to have chosen English as the default 2nd language. I don't see that train stopping anytime soon.

English is the lingua franca because most media is in that language. Big film industry, TV, music, news...if we look at the big picture i think it's fair to say that most of that is in English and with the internet, smart phones etc if people in foreign countries want to consume most of it they have to learn English.

I think it's probably that simple.
One article I came across recently mentioned the need for farmers to learn english, as fertiliser manufacturers are never going to print their instructions in minor_language_X

Well that's one tiny example but most people don't learn a language for economic reasons. Hundreds of millions of teens/young adults don't learn English to trade with the US, they learn it to watch Breaking Bad and complain about Donald Trump.
It was the reason given by a government minister for promoting english language learning in their country. Minority languages do not get catered to by large manufacturers. So while a sack of fertiliser/pesticide will have instructions printed on it, they will only be in a limited number of languages.

I'm sure the same problem carries over into other industries; medicines packaging, technical repair manuals for machinery etc.

Well promotion and people wanting to do something are different things though. They're promoting lots of things in the UK which aren't being done by the general population. Promoting healthy eating doesn't stop McDonalds being packed out all day.

I was talking about why normal people would choose to learn English. And it's normally not down to the economy or anything else. The world speaks English because all the relevant media is in English. All the top shows are in English. All the iconic pop songs/stars sing in English. Etc.
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Re: French Group 2016 - Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveBee » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:01 pm

Marais wrote:Well promotion and people wanting to do something are different things though. They're promoting lots of things in the UK which aren't being done by the general population. Promoting healthy eating doesn't stop McDonalds being packed out all day.

I was talking about why normal people would choose to learn English. And it's normally not down to the economy or anything else. The world speaks English because all the relevant media is in English. All the top shows are in English. All the iconic pop songs/stars sing in English. Etc.
I'm sure hollywood/culture attracts some people but yes even normal people have non-telly-watching reasons for learning english.

The 830,000 polish immigrants to the UK will have needed to learn English for more than watching telly.

Careers in science now require english. Bureaucrats in international organisations, employees in multi-national companies, all need english language skills to progress.
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Marais
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Re: French Group 2016 - Les Voyageurs

Postby Marais » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:49 pm

DaveBee wrote:
I'm sure hollywood/culture attracts some people but yes even normal people have non-telly-watching reasons for learning english.

The 830,000 polish immigrants to the UK will have needed to learn English for more than watching telly.

Careers in science now require english. Bureaucrats in international organisations, employees in multi-national companies, all need english language skills to progress.[/quote]
Sorry i was talking about the way English is a lingua franca, and how everybody seemingly speaks it, and how it has has been this way for the last 20 years at least that i know of.

That's not down to people immigrating to a country that speaks the language. That's not down to careers in science.

Posting links is no good because you're arguing against something i'm not saying. I'm talking about lingua franca. I'm talking about widespread knowledge of English amongst sub-50 year olds Europe and world wide. You seem to be talking about people who have a genuine survival need to learn the language, of which the majority are not.

English is the lingua franca because of the media which is pretty much (in the grand scheme of things) all in English.
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Re: French Group 2016 - Les Voyageurs

Postby Serpent » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:47 pm

I think the young people are just more motivated to learn English, due to the cool things you mentioned and also travel/work/student exchanges. They/we have opportunities that their parents didn't have at this age, and now many adults just don't have the time or think it's too late.

The Internet does have huge communities for many languages. Sure there's a lot of information you can only find in English, but just for fun it's not obligatory, no.
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Re: French Group 2016 - Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveBee » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:37 pm

Serpent wrote:I think the young people are just more motivated to learn English, due to the cool things you mentioned and also travel/work/student exchanges. They/we have opportunities that their parents didn't have at this age, and now many adults just don't have the time or think it's too late.

The Internet does have huge communities for many languages. Sure there's a lot of information you can only find in English, but just for fun it's not obligatory, no.
I'm sure those young students have many different motivations for learning english, but the provision of english lessons in taxpayer-funded schools was a policy choice by the local/national governments.
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Re: French Group 2016 - Les Voyageurs

Postby Serpent » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:32 am

DaveBee wrote:
Serpent wrote:I think the young people are just more motivated to learn English, due to the cool things you mentioned and also travel/work/student exchanges. They/we have opportunities that their parents didn't have at this age, and now many adults just don't have the time or think it's too late.
I'm sure those young students have many different motivations for learning english, but the provision of english lessons in taxpayer-funded schools was a policy choice by the local/national governments.
Oh I'm not disputing that. It's just that not everyone who takes English or another language at school knows anything. True, some people have literally zero knowledge of English because they studied French/German/Spanish/Russian/? at school, but imo it's not a very important factor anymore.

If it wasn't very clear, I actually agree with you. I think the motivation and exposure are a major reason why young people *manage* to learn English, but not why it's lingua franca. Of course by now it's a virtuous/vicious cycle, depending on the situation.

In other words, they don't happen to learn English because they like the American culture. They happen to have opportunities to use the language they're expected to learn (by school/family). Those who have less opportunities generally learn less.
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