Grammar through massive input (exposure)

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Cainntear
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Re: Grammar through massive input (exposure)

Postby Cainntear » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:28 am

reineke wrote:I hope this is useful.

You have no idea! I'm just writing an assignment on listening-based instruction for learners, and I was facing a long search through the ejournals for citations on those very issues!

I'm going to have to keep a count of how many of my assignment references I take from your posts!!!
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Re: Grammar through massive input (exposure)

Postby Iversen » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:41 pm

It will take me some time to get through all the references in Reineke's massive post above, but in the meantime I would like to mention a small battle I had with my phonetics teacher at the university where I studied French.

Modern French has three or four nasal vowels: ɛ̃ as in "brin", ɑ̃ as in "banc", ɔ̃ as in "bon" and in some cases œ̃ as in "brun" (this last one is on its way out).

To me the ɛ̃ (as in "lin") is in exactly in the same position as a flat a, just not nasalized (i.e. as in "la"), but my teacher and and our textbook (Malmberg "Phonétique Française"p.71) claimed that it corresponded to ɛ (as in "laid"). Now forty years later, I still don't agree. So if I have heard something I doubt that a mere question of orthography could change my mind. Maybe a close listening to minimal pairs, supplemented by X-ray pictures, could do the trick, but not just a mere claim in a book or from a teacher - and definitely not the spelling conventions in a totally different language.
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Re: Grammar through massive input (exposure)

Postby YtownPolyglot » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:49 pm

The only way to be able to speak and understand a language fluently is to hear lots and lots and lots of it. You can't limit yourself just to polished news announcers or teachers who speak slowly and enunciate. You need to hear many different voices, and you need to hear "regular people" talking as they ordinarily do to other natives. Even then, there will be people whose French (or whatever other target language) you are learning whom you don't understand. After more than fifty years, I still don't understand a lot of my native English.

If that sounds discouraging, just realize that babies and young children get all sorts of one-on-one native input and have no other job to speak of than to learn the language. You will never get that sort of environment. Even then, it takes them years to get to the stage that we consider "fluency" for adults.
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reineke
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Re: Grammar through massive input (exposure)

Postby reineke » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:26 pm

G is for Grammar McNuggets

"Stephen Krashen once said (only half-jokingly, I suspect) that, more important than having new ideas is giving old ideas new names."

With that in mind, I was reminded recently that it was 10 years ago that I coined the term “grammar McNuggets” (in a talk at IATEFL Dublin in 2000). Essentially, there is nothing new in the view that grammar is artificially packaged into bite-sized chunks for the purposes of teaching: William Rutherford had used the term “accumulated entities” in a book in 1987, and who knows how long the term “discrete items” has been around? So, why “grammar McNuggets”?

What I wanted to capture was not just the discrete-item nature of the grammar syllabus, but the way that this is exploited, particularly by publishers, for the purposes of the global marketing of EFL. To do this, I drew on a construct, familiar to students of cultural studies, and first developed by Stuart Hall, called “the circuit of culture”. The circuit of culture is a construct for the analysis of cultural artefacts that has been applied to a range of objects, including the Sony Walkman. Du Gay (1997), for example, argues that to study the Walkman culturally one should at least explore how it is represented, what social identities are associated with it, how it is produced and consumed, and what mechanisms regulate its distribution and use. (p. 3)

Applying this model to pedagogical grammar, I was curious to see how grammar is represented (e.g. in publishers’ catalogues), how it is produced — or better — reproduced, how it is consumed in the classroom, how it is regulated (e.g. by exam boards), and who identifies with it (e.g. what ideas and values are associated with an allegiance to grammar teaching).

With regard to its (re-)production, I was drawn to this text on ‘McDonaldization’:

A perfect example of a simulated product is McDonald’s Chicken McNugget. The executives at McDonald’s have determined that the authentic chicken, with its skin, gristle and bones, is simply not the kind of product that McDonald’s ought to be selling; hence the creation of the Chicken McNugget which can be seen as inauthentic, as a simulacrum. There is no “real” or even “original” Chicken McNugget; they are, and can only be, simulacra. (p. 10)

To quote from the text of my talk: “Much of what is taught as pedagogic grammar is of equally doubtful authenticity. The skin, gristle and bones of language have been removed such that “grammar exists independently of other aspects of language such as vocabulary and phonology” (Kerr, 1996: 95). Moreover, the findings of corpus linguistics in particular suggest that pedagogic grammars only loosely reflect authentic language use and that “some relatively common linguistic constructions are overlooked, while some relatively rare constructions receive considerable attention” (Biber, et al. 1994, p. 171). An enthusiasm for compartmentalization, inherited from grammars of classical languages, has given rise to the elaborate architecture of the so-called tense system – including such grammar McNuggets as the future-in-the-past, and the past perfect continuous, not to mention the conditionals, first, second and third – features of the language that have little or no linguistic, let alone psychological, reality. While attempts have been made to restore authenticity to grammar, such attempts have generally fallen on deaf ears. If some more recent coursebooks are anything to go by, grammar syllabuses are becoming less innovative and even more derivative”.

That was ten years ago. Is it still true?"

In the comments section:

"...there’s a danger that the discoveries being made by corpus researchers will simply be ‘processed’ into yet more ‘grammar McNuggets’"

https://scottthornbury.wordpress.com/20 ... mcnuggets/
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