Unconscious mastering of a word

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Re: Unconscious mastering of a word

Postby Montmorency » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:56 pm

yong321 wrote:RAE (Real Academia Española)'s corpus (http://corpus.rae.es/frec/CREA_total.zip) of 737799 words lists albedrío in position 24352. So it's not really a rare word. This is one of the best Spanish word frequency lists I know.


I put "will" into google translate, and it came 3rd in a list of 6 possible noun translations offered by GT, after "la voluntad" and "el deseo".
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Re: Unconscious mastering of a word

Postby outcast » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:54 am

Spanish language is too multipolar to rely on a frequency list past the first 2.000 words, unless of course your studying Peninsular Spanish (given the RAE list), which is absolutely legitimate as an endeavor.

But I would bet the word "albedrío" on an Argentine Spanish frequency list would come no sooner than at past the 30 or 40,000 mark. And a word like "laburar" or "quilombo" would break the top 10,000, if not top 5,000. So if you studied a Peninsular Spanish list and then use some of those words in downtown Buenos Aires, it is only normal you make get some bemused looks from the locals. :lol:
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Re: Unconscious mastering of a word

Postby reineke » Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:46 am

outcast wrote:Spanish language is too multipolar to rely on a frequency list past the first 2.000 words, unless of course your studying Peninsular Spanish (given the RAE list), which is absolutely legitimate as an endeavor.

But I would bet the word "albedrío" on an Argentine Spanish frequency list would come no sooner than at past the 30 or 40,000 mark. And a word like "laburar" or "quilombo" would break the top 10,000, if not top 5,000. So if you studied a Peninsular Spanish list and then use some of those words in downtown Buenos Aires, it is only normal you make get some bemused looks from the locals. :lol:


Libre Albedrío - Proyecto G (Argentinian TV)

Capítulo 02 del programa Proyecto G sexta temporada, emitido por Canal Encuentro de Argentina. ¿Somos libres al tomar decisiones? ¿Hay factores externos que nos influencian? ¿Qué rol juega la conciencia en nuestras decisiones? En esta oportunidad, investigamos a fondo el Libre albedrío.



Argentinian blog:
El artista no es una persona dotada de libre albedrío que busca sus propios fines...

Jurado popular con libre albedrío
(Argentinian newspaper title)

Destino o Libre Albedrío: an Argentinian language school page discussing Borges, a very famous Argentinian
"En esta actividad vamos a leer y analizar un poema de Jorge Luis Borges, pensar y conversar sobre el tema del destino y el libre albedrío..."
http://www.verbanet.com.ar/destino.html

Another website:

"...Sorprendía a muchos el escepticismo de Borges sobre el libre albedrío...
En sus palabras: “Uno siente que el Universo responde a un dibujo. Las cosas no son absolutamente arbitrarias: hay cuatro estaciones, nuestra vida va pasando por etapas: nacimiento, niñez, juventud… Podrían ser indicios de que hay una trama, de que este mundo no es caótico sino laberíntico. Es como el libre albedrío. Posiblemente no exista, pero uno no puede pensar que en este momento no es libre ¿no?”
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Re: Unconscious mastering of a word

Postby outcast » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:11 am

Then in the 7 years I spent there, I only associated with the uncouth and unlearned. :lol:

(Though, these seven years were from ages 6 to 13, so it may have something to do with the dearth of exposure to this word).

However, I have watched TONS of shows and newscasts in Spanish, from all countries, and still never recall hearing this word. And I like learning words so it only takes once or twice for me to take notice. So I insist that at least in South America, it is very infrequent in the spoken tongue. Written though, could be another matter. I have not read Spanish language anything (aside from internet articles) in ages, so I would never suggest to know how often it pops up there. But in spoken, I can confidently say almost never

But now I purposefully will incorporate it into my active vocabulary, and see what happens when I use it. I will report back later this year when I spend time with Spanish speaking people. :mrgreen:
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Re: Unconscious mastering of a word

Postby reineke » Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:30 pm

The RAE corpus includes expressions from Spanish-speaking America and Spain, and covers very recent language. "Quilombo" is at position 53,985 while "laburar" is at position 91,630 on the RAE frequency list. As mentioned before "albedrío" is at position 24,352. "Mocoso" is at 45,126.

You could certainly try to introduce "albedrío" in casual conversation just for laughs (and to prove a point). The word is however likely to occur as an expression "libre albedrío" and in certain contexts.

It being or not being a spoken conversation item was not the issue in the first place. You insisted that "right now it is the first time (you) ever heard of the word "albedrío". This stance changed and you hid in Argentina and then in the mouth of ordinary people.

Nobody orders "free will" with their morning coffee. You cannot sprinkle it on your ice cream. The Argentinian man in the silly hat certainly knew this expression, you can find it in book titles meant for general public and in newspaper headlines... The instructor at the local school thought it was a neat thing to know.
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Re: Unconscious mastering of a word

Postby outcast » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:24 am

With all due respect Reineke, if the RAE lists "quilombo" at 53,000 something, then it is useless as a tool to ascertain the usage of a word in spoken contexts in a certain region of the Spanish speaking world. I politely must ask you to defer to my experience on the ground here: when you go to Argentina, the ratio of "quilombo" to "albedrío" will be something in the order of 100 to 1, and that is being generous.

But anyway, I am not here to argue at all. Maybe my statement sounded overly sweeping and somehow as being against learning this word. Nope, I above said I learned it myself! I can't even remember now what was the original argument, consequently it's one of those conversations that I think has lost any useful purpose.

I do sustain that in my personal experience I never recall hearing this word, but I should have pointed out my personal experience, region, and that my environment for many years has no longer been Spanish language exclusive, limiting exposure. It's not hiding, it's just me being super lazy and leaving out important details about why my experience may be as I depicted. I shall take a mulligan for that this time, and be more conscientious next time.
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Re: Unconscious mastering of a word

Postby reineke » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:16 pm

Hi outcast

Funny thing. Yesterday afternoon I heard "hasta la vista" in a Spanish-dubbed cartoon. I know that the expression "hasta la vista, chicas" was a hit in 1700's. I also found language advice by native Spanish speakers to English speakers recommending other expressions so as not to sound "like Arnold in Terminator". With all this advice some Anglos (and one Russian) are about as likely to name their firstborn Adolf as they are to ever use "hasta la vista" when speaking Spanish. I can see how a big, accented, foreign guy could have sounded a bit funny with his "hasta la vista" in Peru some 20 years ago but his phrasebook was not incorrect. It's just not a very common way of saying "bye" in some parts.

I appreciate your thoughts. I agree that you're more likely to find quilombo, and as I mentioned before, it was about twice as common on Argentinian websites. It is very reasonable to expect that it would also be a lot more common in actual spoken language. I do believe you when you report what you hear and how you use the language. I may disagree with some of your observations about the language, or about my own conclusions but that's a different matter. I will only defer to reason :)

The RAE frequency list is based on written language and it's a very useful tool. The list is based on texts from across the Spanish-speaking world and a rating of 24,000 - 50,000 is not bad at all. Yes, it would be a bad tool for determining the exact word frequencies of spoken Argentinian Spanish, but if a word from spoken Argentinian Spanish appears on the list one can easily infer that the word may be important locally. If you reread my posts you should be able to conclude that I never argued that "libre albedrío" was a common spoken expression in Argentina or anywhere else. My main point was that if an expression such as this one keeps dropping unannounced all over the place it might be important enough to remember.

As I mentioned above, I do not expect people to casually enter into a discussion about "free will" as a philosophical concept anywhere in the Spanish-speaking world except some university or church settings. From the foregoing it is possible to conclude that I don't believe this expression to be a common one in a spoken setting. There are other ways of expressing similar concepts with good Spanish words (libre elección, libre voluntad), but the philosophical concept itself and the wording are shared across the Spanish-speaking world and across centuries. I believe that the English-language translation complicates things a little - "free will" is a combination of very common words and may denote more overlapping concepts whereas in other languages you could have a more specialized term. In Italian the literal translation for "libre albedrío" is "libero arbitrio" which is not a common spoken expression at all. You would have to have a good reason to introduce such an expression in everyday communication.

High and medium frequency words from the written world will drop like a bomb in a spoken context. This is where you may roll your eyes and change the channel/tune out 'cause "here come the intellectuals" or you may decide it may be worth your while to listen. Someone may need to explain to you what is being discussed etc.
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Re: Unconscious mastering of a word

Postby reineke » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:41 am

I've heard hasta la vista a bunch of times (European Sp.). Tonight I heard "libero arbitrio" (same as libre albedrío,, only in Italian) while watching an old animated series called "Berserk". I don't have the series in Spanish but I looked it up online.

"No se que pensará Dios, pero creo que nos dio libre albedrío para hacer lo que necesitemos."

Luca from Berserk (La Edad de Oro).

I don't know if this qualifies as esoteric wisdom, but the expression was used by St Augustine and in an animated show. As mentioned before, "albedrío" is at position 24,352 in the RAE corpus frequency list. An illustration of the difficulties facing FL learners.
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Re: Unconscious mastering of a word

Postby lusan » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:16 am

outcast wrote:I am a native Spanish (learned in Argentina) speaker, right now it is the first time I ever heard of the word "albedrío".


I am Dominican. It is a well known word in philosophy. It is also "Libre albedrio". A common word talking deep to our educated friends.
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