How good/bad was your school languages experience...in reality?

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3168
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10608

Re: How good/bad was your school languages experience...in reality?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:55 pm

aokoye wrote:Yes I practiced an hour a day most days of the week until I went to college (and then more in college), and that far exceeded the expectations of my middle and high school band directors. I did a quick google and found a forum thread that is more or less in agreement with the "kids who aren't serious about music are practicing far less than an hour a day" thought (...)


A martial arts instructor once told my senior that "Anything less than two hours of training per day is a hobby.". 8-)
4 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord

User avatar
tastyonions
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1624
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:39 pm
Location: Dallas, TX
Languages: EN (N), FR, ES, DE, IT, PT, NL, EL
x 4047

Re: How good/bad was your school languages experience...in reality?

Postby tastyonions » Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:00 pm

Le Baron wrote:
tastyonions wrote:Pretty much any American university (I hesitate to say "every" but it's probably pretty close) will let you start a language degree or any other degree from zero. I guess that's got pros and cons but I think I like the idea on balance.

Any degree?! Surely a student would need to have done some level of prior study in order to understand the degree level material? If I had turned up for my economics degree from a position of zero I wouldn't have lasted the week. Just the maths alone would have eliminated me.

Yes, almost any degree.

It's generally expected you'll have some basic mathematics knowledge (usually up to what we call "advanced algebra" or "pre-calculus" here) and be able to slap together a short essay with something approaching coherence, but even then there are remedial classes to catch you up. No specialized degree-specific knowledge or experience is needed, with some rare exceptions as aokoye noted for performance-centered tracks.
0 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3578
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9575

Re: How good/bad was your school languages experience...in reality?

Postby Le Baron » Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:17 pm

aokoye wrote:Yes I practiced an hour a day most days of the week until I went to college (and then more in college), and that far exceeded the expectations of my middle and high school band directors.

I was at a specialist music school so it would be expected that I got a fair bit of work in. Though I also practised outside school about 2-4 hours a day, sometimes playing in ensembles in the evening. I say this because it took up a fair amount of my time and this obviously limits other so-called 'passions'. I would have classed myself as 'reasonable' in terms of effort, because those with an eye fixed on first chair in an orchestra worked harder and longer.
0 x
Pedantry is properly the over-rating of any kind of knowledge we pretend to.
- Jonathan Swift

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3578
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9575

Re: How good/bad was your school languages experience...in reality?

Postby Le Baron » Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:28 pm

tastyonions wrote:Yes, almost any degree.

It's generally expected you'll have some basic mathematics knowledge (usually up to what we call "advanced algebra" or "pre-calculus" here) and be able to slap together a short essay with something approaching coherence, but even then there are remedial classes to catch you up. No specialized degree-specific knowledge or experience is needed, with some rare exceptions as aokoye noted for performance-centered tracks.

I can see good and bad sides to this. I believe everyone should have chances and perhaps some people's schooling was not so great, but they might get a chance to shine higher up the educational ladder. On the other side it could also be seen as higher education getting unprepared students and then a fair bit of time for the degree is wasted getting people up to speed, when it could be used for quality work.

For language learning it's probably always better to start younger for the whole package and because of time, though this goes for most disciplines. Practically every student on my degree course had an A or B in A level further mathematics and statistics.
0 x
Pedantry is properly the over-rating of any kind of knowledge we pretend to.
- Jonathan Swift

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3310
Contact:

Re: How good/bad was your school languages experience...in reality?

Postby aokoye » Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:26 am

Le Baron wrote:I can see good and bad sides to this. I believe everyone should have chances and perhaps some people's schooling was not so great, but they might get a chance to shine higher up the educational ladder. On the other side it could also be seen as higher education getting unprepared students and then a fair bit of time for the degree is wasted getting people up to speed, when it could be used for quality work.

For better or worse, outside of things like degrees in math and foreign languages (and the aforementioned performing and fine arts) most students are coming in at a fairly level playing field. In the case of students coming in with drastically more knowledge that would add up to an undergraduate level class those students may be able to test out of lower level classes or may be in a situation where their college (as in post secondary institution) will award credits for previous classes taken in high school (things like IB or AP courses assuming their IB/AP test results were good enough).
1 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

zgriptsuroica
Orange Belt
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:52 pm
Languages: English (N), French (Advanced, especially reading), Spanish (Advanced), Brazilian Portuguese (Advanced), Japanese (beginner), Icelandic (just starting)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17372
x 361

Re: How good/bad was your school languages experience...in reality?

Postby zgriptsuroica » Thu Feb 08, 2024 11:33 am

On the topic of starting university degrees with very limited or no prior studies on a given topic, I think it's also worth taking into account that the curriculum varies pretty wildly by state in the US. Where other countries have a nationally established curriculum, states are largely allowed to set it on a state-by-state basis. Even within a state, you can have a pretty wide range of what students might actually take. In New York, for example, the standards are pretty meager. To get your Regents diploma, which is the minimum for graduating from high school, you only need one year of studying a foreign language. To get the honors regents diploma, you need only study three years of study of a single foreign language. Our secondary schools also don't generally offer any degree of specialization, like I've been told is common in other countries. If universities were to expect students to come already having studied their degree track in some depth, they would essentially cut themselves off from a large pool of applicants who lived in a state that just didn't teach to that standard.

I believe my school was pretty exceptional for the time in that we began foreign language studies in 8th grade, with half year survey classes of French and Spanish so that students could try out both languages and decide which one they wanted to study for a year or two in high school. If you were particularly earnest about language learning, or were looking to have something to stand out with on your university applications, you could actually study for all four years of high school in your chosen language, with the final year being a course they offered in conjunction with a local university that conferred university credit upon graduation. That said, most university degrees I'm familiar with only require a single year of study of a foreign language to obtain your degree. Someone can study one year of Spanish in 9th grade, and one more in their first year at university and be completely done with compulsory foreign language education.

I did French and eventually got a 100% on my regents exam and did the university level class, and I found it pretty lacking. The biggest issue, in my opinion, was that there weren't really opportunities to use it outside of class. There weren't any French language books available at either the school or municipal libraries, no access to French language television, and the best you could hope for with films was that the municipal library might buy a Criterion Collection DVD of a French film. To get books at the time, I had to take a train for about 3 hours to get to the one French bookstore in NYC, and a new paperback would cost me about $40, which is a lot to ask of high school kids. By the time you factored in train fare, you were looking at a $60 book you might or might not enjoy.

Until you got to that university class, it seemed like foreign languages just weren't seen as a priority and were taught with the sole aim of getting you to pass the Regents exam for your chosen language. It was a pretty dreadful experience for me, and I felt like I learned more in the year I took off from it and read on my own than the other four years I took it in school combined. There are now more bilingual schools out there, though primarily for Spanish, which is a step in the right direction. For the entirety of my high school studies, it seemed like it was little more than a box to be ticked off and quickly forgotten about, though.
2 x
Genki I: 0 / 12

bejewelled_niffler
White Belt
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:33 pm
Languages: English (N) Hindi
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19886
x 76

Re: How good/bad was your school languages experience...in reality?

Postby bejewelled_niffler » Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:19 am

Le Baron wrote:
bejewelled_niffler wrote:So there's no point in trying to evaluate the instructional quality of the classes. I got good instructional quality from my private tutoring sessions before school, so I can imagine class would have also been high quality if the barn animals had been expelled and left behind the 5 students who were interested in their educations. But I'll never know.

Considering you could get private tutoring I wonder why you went to such a bad school at all.


Sorry for the confusion. By private tutoring sessions I meant the sessions with my French teacher before school started.
0 x

User avatar
sporedandroid
Blue Belt
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:54 am
Languages: English (N), Spanish (heritage/intermediate), Hebrew (A2-B1)
x 1430

Re: How good/bad was your school languages experience...in reality?

Postby sporedandroid » Tue Feb 13, 2024 8:30 am

I was in French immersion. I was super shy. I guess for the first year they were okay with that, but the second year they weren’t. So I quit French immersion. Since then I didn’t like the French language all that much. I see the merit of the French language, but I just can’t stay motivated to study French. I tried dabbling a bit with French a few years ago. I listened to the podcast InnerFrench. I could actually follow it pretty well even though I haven’t actually studied French in a long time.

I don’t even know how much my one year of French immersion even helped me. Maybe it’s just a combination of knowing English and Spanish. I’m also Canadian, so I’m surrounded by packaging that’s in English and French. So maybe I have some vague knowledge of French without really studying. Even though I’m “naturally” good at French, I just couldn’t stick to it.

I still remember the moment I decided to quit French. I was in the middle of listening to InnerFrench and I just felt irrationally angry. What am I even doing listening to French? It just felt like I was wasting time I could use to study Hebrew. Even though French is way more practical than Hebrew. I also felt like that about German. I thought German would be a nice and practical language to know. Conveniently this doesn’t happen with other fun and impractical languages.
4 x

User avatar
Rey
White Belt
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:17 am
Location: Valencian Community, Spain, Europe
Languages: Spanish (N), English (C1), Catalan/Valencian (C1), French (beginner), German (beginner)
x 69

Re: How good/bad was your school languages experience...in reality?

Postby Rey » Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:31 pm

There was an old expression about Spain during the second half of the 20th Century: 'Spain is different.'

Posibly, this phrase was intended initially to displease Spanish people, but later it was adopted by touristic operators to attract even more visitors to the country and used as a 'motto'.

More surprisingly for me is that my experience in Spain during the 1980s and 1990s with language learning at school is similar to those who described their own at Central and Eastern Europe, with the peculiar difference that, nowadays, Spanish is not a completely irrelevant language. But in my humble opinion, it is losing relevance and the language itself has been seriously damaged in the last three or four decades by the mass media due to some obscure reasons.

I wasn't in the mood to write about this topic, but last week I had an occasional conversation [in Spanish] with an alumni from my High School promotion. We had some small talk -it is 'Fallas' time; 'Fiesta'- and I showed him a comic strip in English about the topic we were speaking about. I considered the reading content of the strip as 'very easy to understand', B1 level or lower. My very first idea was to laugh both about the strip and having a good time remembering old times. We both chose English as a foreign language at High School. But what happened later surprised me. [It was supposed that the entry level at Public Spanish Universities at that time in Spain was at least equivalent to B1 in at least one foreign language. We both graduated later at Uni with differents majors.] Humbly, he recognized 'I do not understand it.', he said. 'Actually, I haven't studied a single word of English since we both graduated at High School. I work in a Spanish environment, and when I have to do something with a foreigner client who doesn't speak Spanish, we hire a professional translator for the occassion, so knowing other languages is not part of my job. I do not need to know English.'

BTW, I wrote about my very first encounter with English at this topic: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=19661&p=233634#p233634

I plan to continue writing about this later...

Bonus 1: '¿Usted domina el inglés?' [Spanish Joke] https://youtu.be/E7UbVa-XLCM?feature=shared
Bonus 2: 'Viaje Transiberiano' [Spanish Joke] https://youtu.be/xd0_fAgSH1U?feature=shared
[To be continued]
Last edited by Rey on Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3578
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9575

Re: How good/bad was your school languages experience...in reality?

Postby Le Baron » Tue Mar 19, 2024 11:33 pm

zgriptsuroica wrote:Our secondary schools also don't generally offer any degree of specialization, like I've been told is common in other countries. If universities were to expect students to come already having studied their degree track in some depth, they would essentially cut themselves off from a large pool of applicants who lived in a state that just didn't teach to that standard.

When I read these descriptions I'm always surprised how different the concept of 'high school' is between the U.S. and UK/Europe. We don't really 'graduate' from secondary school and nothing in it is regarded as a 'degree'. I just attended and then sat and passed my targeted exams and then left. Some of my university friends did a year or more at U.S. universities and at that time I had no idea about how degrees worked there. So I was baffled by the idea of incorporating languages alongside something else, as if there was no specialisation. If you compare it to how a UK student just starts their e.g. Law course and they are just studying law and any related disciplinary areas. The idea of spending some of these credits on, say, Spanish seems to me very strange. Especially that it might be required.

There was only one person I knew on my own degree course who was studying French. Philosophy and French so she was on the philosophy modules (of the PPE). This was a 'joint honours' degree (a 'double major' I believe it is called in the U.S.). Yet this is like doing a complete degree in French. Not just partial credits or a year or something. I think any UK student would consider such a thing a complete waste of time and credits.
2 x
Pedantry is properly the over-rating of any kind of knowledge we pretend to.
- Jonathan Swift


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Cainntear, Cavesa and 2 guests