The future of French

[Le Baron]

"...im Saarland mit 51,2 Prozent gut die Hälfte der Schülerschaft Französisch als Unterrichtsfach. In Rheinland-Pfalz und Baden-Württemberg war es jeweils rund ein Viertel. Alle drei Bundesländer im Südwesten grenzen an Frankreich. Dagegen lernten in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern nur 10,6 Prozent, in Sachsen-Anhalt 10,7 Prozent und in Nordrhein-Westfalen 11,5 Prozent der Schüler Französisch als Fremdsprache."

This somewhat confirms what I said in the other thread about only border regions either feeling the need for L2 learning (where that TL is a border language) and otherwise defaulting to native language plus whatever is thought useful and/or necessary.

Compare/contrast this with another post somewhere in this thread (I might even have posted myself) about the dearth of German teachers in Alsace. That was partly due to the poor remuneration, but also because German uptake has collapsed. It's difficult to unravel which way the causation runs or if the cause/effect runs in both directions. In general though this one did surprise me because you do actually find bilingual speakers around that region (Strasbourg etc).

The position in NL is pretty clear to me. On the SLO website (which deals with curriculum questions in NL) you can see the position of languages by reading between the lines and how the articles are presented.

Met name basisscholen in de grensregio’s bieden Duits aan, naast het verplichte vak Engels. Een school kiest zelf in welke groep ze start met Duits en hoeveel onderwijstijd (tot max. 15%) zij in het Duits verzorgen. Sommige scholen starten in groep 1, terwijl anderen kiezen om in groep 5 of 7 te beginnen.

So...

Primary schools in border regions in particular offer German, in addition to the compulsory subject of English. Schools choose in which group it will start with German and how much teaching time (to a maximum of 15%) it will provide in German. Some schools start in group 1, while others choose to start in group 5 or 7.

That's the border regions and as you come further inland this just fades away. Or falls into the conventional 'a bit of German during the week and let's get it over with'. This is worth dwelling upon because 1) German is the most spoken EU language after English; 2) it is close by geographically and linguistically. Yet it's easily edged out by English. A goodly portion of the articles on that Dutch website are in English! English is mandatory, German is a choice... If anyone wants to see the reality of German in this country currently there's that video from Easy Languages where we see how weak it is now.

Which leads to French. I tell you it is practically off the radar. So much so that the schools and authorities have to write those upbeat encouragement articles enumerating reasons for why it is beneficial. Including things like: 'education in NL is now becoming so expensive that some students look to France to pursue further education...another reason to learn...'. An absurd situation in every sense. Even though education is supposed to be accessible for all as an EU directive. And even though quite a lot of French students actually go to Belgium because the entry requirements in French universities are considered to be overly strict with a high entry barrier.

In general if you read around the various EU country websites, they repeat the same song: 'in a globalised world you need to understand languages and different cultures...' etc. Yet they put English as the mandatory language subject and pay only weak lip service to the dwindling uptake of (major) European languages. If it was a matter of 'global culture and trade' they would probably be making e.g. Arabic and Mandarin and Hindi mandatory subjects as well, but that's not happening. So they make it English.

Spanish is worth watching because it is clearly getting the upper-hand all-round. Although this is driven by Latin America I'm sure. In Europe more people speak Italian as a first or second language speaker than speak Spanish. I never thought about that before, but I read it recently in a periodical and checked it out. Italy itself outstrips the Spanish population by 10 million and if you include regions in Switzerland and the Balkans (though I don't know how strong it is there), plus the emigrant communities around Europe, it seems to be a much bigger language on the European scale.

[tungemål]

Regarding French in Africa, a couple of years ago I watched a youtube vlog by a western guy living in an African country and learning the local language. It was interesting but now I can't find it. He interviewed people and found that the youth, who were generally bilingual (French and the local African language) preferred to speak French, seeing it as cool, modern and beneficial for education.

I can't even remember the country. Anyone know this youtube channel?

[dml130]

Mali removes French as its official language

Mali, a country in West Africa, has removed French from being the official language of communication to being a working language following the implementation of its new constitution.

To me, the change seems more symbolic than anything, since, as I understand it, French is still designated to serve the same role, basically. Still, it might be a sign of what the future holds for the language in Mali, and possibly in other francophone African countries (like the nearby country of Niger, which is now experiencing its own coup and maybe following a similar trajectory).

[noblethings]

The main thing I've observed, is that French people themselves aren't very concerned about preserving the language in the motherland. The general attitude towards people who speak "posh" is very negative. As France heads into an inevitable era of hardship, the people seem to associate properly-spoken French with the rich and privileged, whom they dislike. The higher the retirement age becomes and the more they are encouraged to repair their old clothes, the more they will hate the "rich peoples'" French. I think French will definitely survive - especially in Africa, but the version of French that survives will be extremely different from the standard version.

Mali removes French as its official language

Mali, a country in West Africa, has removed French from being the official language of communication to being a working language following the implementation of its new constitution.

To me, the change seems more symbolic than anything, since, as I understand it, French is still designated to serve the same role, basically. Still, it might be a sign of what the future holds for the language in Mali, and possibly in other francophone African countries (like the nearby country of Niger, which is now experiencing its own coup and maybe following a similar trajectory).

The people of Mali and these other African nations have no real reason to use French. Even the Francophones are having to wake up to the reality that France doesn't want them, as human beings. They are taught to dream of living in France, all while their passports are denied visa-free access, and they are treated with suspicion during the immigration process. The coups are interesting because they are a bit different this time. These soldiers are trying to implement economic policy, which points toward a change in their goals.

[Iversen]

I have visited both Niger and Mali (including Timbuktu) a few years ago, and the situation was that French was the language that was used to avoid conflicts and ease communication between different tribes, and also the language used in communications with Europa (read: France) and with tourists. English was almost absent and it would take time for it replace French (as it did in formerly French Indochina).

I travelled around with a group where not one single member (not even the Danish guide) spoke French, and they had dire problems communicating . For instance I had to help some of them at the post office in Timbuktu because there was some regulation concerning postcards and envelopes they couldn't understand. The local guide of course spoke both French and English and some local languages, but the poor guy couldn't be everywhere. So from a purely practical perspective French is bound to stay - and the contacts with Russia and the Wagner mercennaries are not enough to change the situation in the general population rapidly, though there may be consequences on the political level. However with French political and military influence on the wane it is hard to predict what happens in the region in the long run. One possibility that one native language per country becomes the official one, but then it's likely that the divisions between North and South will be even more pronounced, and that Moslem fanatics will become even more powerful in the North than they are now. And if the French Foreign Legion couldn't prevent that, then it's unlike that the Wagner troups or their successors will be able to do so.

So I think that French will remain the linguistic glue in the Sahel countries for at least one generation more, but that the political ties with France will be reduced (or even cut). And I can't see any reason that it should be a different kind of French that prevails.

[tastyonions]

The main thing I've observed, is that French people themselves aren't very concerned about preserving the language in the motherland. The general attitude towards people who speak "posh" is very negative. As France heads into an inevitable era of hardship, the people seem to associate properly-spoken French with the rich and privileged, whom they dislike.

Do you have any examples of this? What is “properly spoken French” for you, and how is it different from what most French people speak?

[Le Baron]

Do you have any examples of this? What is “properly spoken French” for you, and how is it different from what most French people speak?

I don't have actual examples to link or point to, but there is something in that. I would say more a tension between the old 'you must speak properly, like this' and the changing face of vernacular French, especially among youth and children of 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants. Of course plenty within the Parisian upper set also have a more relaxed form speech. It's possible all this is just more prominent in French since there is a stronger history of trying to micromanage the language for 'quality control'.

So I think that French will remain the linguistic glue in the Sahel countries for at least one generation more, but that the political ties with France will be reduced (or even cut). And I can't see any reason that it should be a different kind of French that prevails.

Yes, I agree. The roots are strong and simply switching to a different vehicular language is extra work no-one wants. With regard to underlined I'd say most certainly. Like in e.g. Cameroon and Senegal where altered forms of French (mixed with indigenous languages and English) have developed.

[Iversen]

I can't vouch for Cameroon, but when I visited Senegal I didn't feel what I heard as another kind of French (not even to the extent of Québecqois). Of course there are differences in vocabulary because of different natural and social ambients, but it's still basically French as spoken in the Hexagone. I have also visited Maroc and Tunisia, and there I had the same experience - European French all over. And even though it's outside the scope of this thread I would say that the Portuguese spoken in Mocambique clearly is of the European type and as such clearly different from the dialects spoken in Brazil. Maybe it's because both are spoken as second languages and used for official purposes that they have remained so conservative. OK, I have onlyspoken to people who knew I was a tourist, and they could have spoken a kind of French with more indigenous elements among themselves - but would ordinary salespeople on markets and ordinary employees of museums and hotels really bother to keep two registers alive? On the other hand, French on Haiti did have another sound (shared with the English dialects of the region), and we all know that Québecquois is different from continental French - and some persons (but not all) in Southern French also have a patois which can be ascribed to their Occitan heritage. But I have not once heard anyone in Southern France speak Occitan - they may still know it, but then they keep it as a secret (like that Plattschnackers of Northern Germany).

[Le Baron]

They are mainly among youth groups, rather than official usage and as such might well remain only peculiar vernaculars rather than being the 'replacement'.

[noblethings]

The main thing I've observed, is that French people themselves aren't very concerned about preserving the language in the motherland. The general attitude towards people who speak "posh" is very negative. As France heads into an inevitable era of hardship, the people seem to associate properly-spoken French with the rich and privileged, whom they dislike.

Do you have any examples of this? What is “properly spoken French” for you, and how is it different from what most French people speak?

There must be such a thing as "proper French", because an entire council exists for the purpose of regulating the use of the French language. Of course I'm referring to Academie Francaise which has existed since 1635. If there is no such thing as Standard French, then that organization wouldn't exist, I don't think. And whatever this council has done seems to have worked. When you compare 1600s written French to 1600s written English, the French has remained almost the same. But English keeps changing wildly every couple of centuries or so.