Is your language exchange partner an incompetent fudge?

[rdearman]

Today I was doing a language exchange with a lovely young Chinese girl who constantly used U for you, and UR for you're or your. I'm not normally a Grammar Nazi, but this "textspeak" really pisses me off. So I told her she shouldn't use U and UR but rather the actual word because it isn't correct and it is bad practice. She told me her language tutor had told her this was an acceptable way to "shorten" the words and all English speakers did it. Anyway, I explained about text speak and this wasn't correct spelling, etc, etc, but it got me wondering if I've ever matched myself up with an Italian or French exchange partner who was like this woman’s tutor.

I suspect most people who've I had the pleasure of speaking with are very conscious of trying to teach best practice with me. I know most native speakers know when you are using bad grammar, although they might not be able to explain the rules they can correct you. But what about this example of stupidity from a so-called tutor. This person had been happily using text speak for everything thinking it was acceptable, perhaps even applying for jobs.

Which reminds me of another time when I had some young 20-something apply for a job where I worked and put "ur company" on an application rather than "your company", needless to say he didn't get the job.

I suppose the only way to avoid getting bad advice consistently, is to widen the net and speak to as many natives as possible and hope that given a large enough pool of people you'll not be lead astray. What are your thoughts?

[tomgosse]

This person had been happily using text speak for everything thinking it was acceptable, perhaps even applying for jobs.

Which reminds me of another time when I had some young 20-something apply for a job where I worked and put "ur company" on an application rather than "your company", needless to say he didn't get the job.

Too funny!

[brilliantyears]

And not just language partners! But anything written by natives...

I remember having a discussion with a Dutch guy who claimed to be speaking Japanese fluently, but even I was able to point out obvious inconsistencies in the texts he wrote. Anyway, he argued that he learned by reading native material (for example, 2chan... if you don't know what that is, be happy). This discussion was happening on a Dutch forum where practically no one knew their grammar (let alone spelling). So I said, "imagine a Japanese person studies Dutch using this forum. Do you think they'll become fluent? Half the people here write ik vindt, for starters." His reply: "Stop nitpicking."

So pick your native material, and your language exchange partners, with care...

[zenmonkey]

My 11 year-old uses French shorthand in her messages to me - she's had to work a little harder to get it right as she's bilingual and the German spelling wreaked havoc on her French initially.
She is now aware that her mother will fine her for improper use of shorthand.

I'm of two minds - I consider language fluid and love the emergence and the richness of leet speak, verlan, sms language, homographs, etc.

But please learn to use it in the right moments and don't use it so poorly that it defines how illiterate you come across.

βμτ ρℓεαsε ℓεαяη το μsε ιτ яιgнτ αηδ δοη'τ μsε ιτ sο ροοяℓλ τнατ ιτ δεƒιηεs λομя нοω ιℓℓιτεяατε λομ ςοмε αςяοss.

bu7 pl3453 l34rn 70 u53 17 r16h7 4nd d0n'7 u53 17 50 p00rly 7h47 17 d3f1n35 y0ur h0w 1ll173r473 y0u c0m3 4cr055.

qnʇ dןǝɐsǝ ןǝɐɹu ʇo nsǝ ıʇ ɹıɓɥʇ ɐup pou'ʇ nsǝ ıʇ so dooɹןʎ ʇɥɐʇ ıʇ pǝɟıuǝs ʎonɹ ɥoʍ ıןןıʇǝɹɐʇǝ ʎon ɔoɯǝ ɐɔɹoss.

[gsbod]

I don't find it at all inappropriate or shocking for a young person to be using textspeak on the internet. But context is everything. When my mum sends me an SMS full of textspeak, I have to confess I find it quite unsettling!

[pir]

I don't view textspeak as illiterate (though in the sense of not adhering to the standard one could describe it as such), I prefer to reserve the word for people who actually cannot read and write; I instead look at it as more of a dialect. Especially if a non-native speaker has only been exposed to kids their own age on the net, there is of course the danger that they might think this is ok in all circumstances -- but it is definitely ok and communicates everything it needs to in certain venues. Not using it at all there would mark you as not belonging. Most people don't learn languages like we do, with lots of research and reading. Her tutor is probably just another kid, too. Open sites like iTalki and InterPals attract such people, and they don't think a whole lot about how and what to teach. There is little or no quality control, certainly not among the free tutors. And then there is the language barrier, so whatever she thinks he said, maybe he didn't.

I think you're also mighty optimistic when it comes to native speakers knowing their own standard grammar; thousands of English teachers can probably attest that this isn't so. I see native English speakers give bad advice on Duolingo all the time, and the younger and less experienced they are, the more they seem to be sure they know it all. They often don't recognize grammar concepts that have become rarer as legitimate at all -- I've had arguments with native American speakers about the subjunctive, which looks completely wrong to them. Now, I haven't met anyone yet who thought that textspeak was A-OK in every circumstance, but I also don't hang out on 2chan. Though it wouldn't surprise me if people who used it much of the time slipped up in other registers sometimes -- the guy with that resume you were talking about probably falls into that category. I have seen so many grammatical errors and typos in resumes over the years. And even in published books, especially since self-publishing has taken off. They've even been defended at times as having been proofread -- sure, but if your beta readers are drawn from among your besties, that doesn't necessarily help much unless their facilities in English are much better than yours.

Yes, widening the net is a good idea -- but reading is IMO more reliable than native speakers to start with, so you develop the facilities to assess the native speakers you encounter. Read something other than people's forum posts and blogs, read published fiction (from orthodox publishers), literature, non-fiction, and become cognizant of the different registers. Joining forums specifically for language learning is also a good idea (the word reference forums seem to attract a lot of people who have clearly never cracked a book a teacher didn't force on them -- fortunately it also attracts people who know their stuff inside out). I'd definitely advise your young Chinese language partner to broaden her horizons if she ever wants to use English in a wider context.

[Jar-Ptitsa]

I don't view textspeak as illiterate (though in the sense of not adhering to the standard one could describe it as such), I prefer to reserve the word for people who actually cannot read and write; I instead look at it as more of a dialect.

I agree, illiterate is when the person can't read or write. many people in the world are truly illiterate and it must not be an insult.

I think that the text speak is ok, it's for texting. I suppose it depends on the age, if a person uses it or hates it. Of course I wouldn't teach a foreigner the text speak, and to use "u" in English is only ok in a text or extremely informal. In Dutch "u" is correct, it's the formal "you".

I haven't got an exchange partner, therefore I can't comment about this question. If the person said that in his or her language, the text speak is "......' then it's ok, but I wouldn't like the text speak in the normal language.

But generally it's difficult in the foreign languages to excalty know the formality, for example in Dutch I thought that "rot op" was ok, that it was "please go away" but apparently it's veyr rude. And "shut up" as well, before, I didn't know that it's so rude.

[chove]

Thing about text/internet speak is that it seems almost like its own dialect and you have to be quite good in your own language to be able to use it AND "proper" language correctly. You also need to be able to judge contexts to know when to use it, because it really isn't seen as being correct and accurate. "I'm in ur [noun], [verb]ing ur [noun]" for instance, isn't accepted outside of internet culture. I think what I'm getting at is that mostly people are quite capable of sounding "proper" but that they may be misjudging the context of when to do so? Like I'd use "ur" on Skype typing but not in a language context where I'm meant to show that I know the correct thing to say.

[astromule]

I agree with u. I also h8 when peeps do that. But the real question is: can I work in ur company?

Today I was doing a language exchange with a lovely young Chinese girl who constantly used U for you, and UR for you're or your. I'm not normally a Grammar Nazi, but this "textspeak" really pisses me off. So I told her she shouldn't use U and UR but rather the actual word because it isn't correct and it is bad practice. She told me her language tutor had told her this was an acceptable way to "shorten" the words and all English speakers did it. Anyway, I explained about text speak and this wasn't correct spelling, etc, etc, but it got me wondering if I've ever matched myself up with an Italian or French exchange partner who was an illiterate dipshit like this woman’s tutor.

I suspect most people who've I had the pleasure of speaking with are very conscious of trying to teach best practice with me. I know most native speakers know when you are using bad grammar, although they might not be able to explain the rules they can correct you. But what about this example of stupidity from a so-called tutor. This person had been happily using text speak for everything thinking it was acceptable, perhaps even applying for jobs.

Which reminds me of another time when I had some young 20-something apply for a job where I worked and put "ur company" on an application rather than "your company", needless to say he didn't get the job.

I suppose the only way to avoid getting bad advice consistently, is to widen the net and speak to as many natives as possible and hope that given a large enough pool of people you'll not be lead astray. What are your thoughts?

[robarb]

- I don't abbreviate "you" to "u," but I do default to writing in all-lowercase and using textspeak expressions like "lol" and slangy words like "welp" in text chat. I don't have anything against people who use strong textspeak in appropriate contexts such as text chat. That is a separate matter from their ability to write in standard English.

- A substantial fraction of people in the world can't write their native language in the standard, formal register. Whether you want them as your language tutor is your own decision.

- Maybe the tutor correctly said that the abbreviations in question are commonly used, and the student misunderstood that to mean they are acceptable in all contexts.

- If you are the kind of person who values the educated register enough to care about this, you can probably identify textspeak pretty easily even in a foreign language, assuming you do any significant amount of reading of published texts. If your reading is mostly internet forums and the like, you probably don't care.

- It sounds like the student's English level wasn't that high. When she's ready to work in an English-language workplace, I'd assume she'll have done enough reading that this kind of mistake would be a lot less likely.