Extensive reading and listening. Does it really work?

[Montmorency]

Parallel texts: Good if you have them, but they are not always available for the books you want to read in the languages you want to read them in. You can make your own if you have a suitable translation in machine-readable form. If you have one but not in machine readable form, you could scan it and OCR it, which can be a fair amount of work. What if there is no translation? Well, you can put the TL version through google/bing translate and get a literal-ish translation which you can then go through and refine manually. A great exercise actually, but it takes time and patience.

But just say you do have a parallel text, handed to you on a plate, as it were, what do you do with it exactly? How is it best used? You are always going to be dependent on the quality of the translation: how reliable it is, and how literal it is.

I remember trying to read "Death in Venice" for the first time. It's quite a difficult book - short story actually - even though it is short. It's not difficult to figure out "what is going on". What "goes on" could probably be described in about three lines. What's difficult is to figure out what the author is actually saying and why he is saying it in that way. You are not just reading for what is going on but for the quality of the language. You want to understand this kind of language, or you do if you are of a certain mindset. For years the only translation was well-known for its awfulness, although it was still trotted out by a well-known publisher with a marine-avian name. It didn't help much; if anything, it served to mislead. Later on I came across a better one (possibly two, I can't be sure now; both by Americans). Nevertheless, it's still not my favourite book, I have to say, although I have read other things by Thomas Mann and enjoyed them.

[Finny]

I'm from the input school and a true believer because it's how I learned Spanish. More than 99% of my progress came from reading books at all levels (from preschool books to adult novels), watching telenovelas, and listening to the radio and music. However, I did still look up words frequently via Wordreference. My personal approach was to only look up words if I remembered them, and to never write things down to research, with my knowledge being that it would stick much better if I had to remember it enough to look it up. For me, listening and listening and listening was the primary way I learned to speak. There are still little things that trip me up, like when to use "le" vs "lo" with particular verbs, but to me, that's just a sign that I need to read and listen more, and also look more things up now and then. But while the method definitely doesn't work for everyone, it worked for me, along with reading the occasional thread on WF and looking up words there. Even in my job as a preschool teacher, where I use Spanish daily (I run the class in 90% Spanish, and speak to all the parents in Spanish), I still look up words multiple times a week, although they become more and more obscure (e.g., "clown fish" this morning, "icicle" last Friday). Sometimes I look words up multiple times because I keep forgetting them. That's okay; eventually they stick.

[IronMike]

I think I already answered the original question, but I remembered another technique I used which help(s)(ed) me with my languages: I got an L2-L2 dictionary (e.g. Russian to Russian dictionary, like the Ozhegov dictionary, Толковиы словарь русского языка, or the Plena Vortaro de Esperanto). When reading, if I kept hitting a word I couldn't get from context, I'd look that word up in the dictionary, and get a definition in the L2, which helped me immensely in cementing that word in my brain-pan.

[NoManches]

I love extensive reading simply because it is fun. After reading a lot in Spanish, I find that I can "think" better in Spanish and use the language better. It's a great warm up before having a conversation, and I always try to read for a few minutes before having a 1 on 1 lesson with my tutor. On the days I read, I speak really well. On the days I don't read before the lesson, my speaking might be great, but usual isn't as good as it should be.

I started extensive reading because people told me it would help with listening. A while ago I as watching a telenovela in Spanish WITH subtitles on so I could practice associating words with sounds. My listening improved, but my overall comprehension was still pretty bad (I realized this because I could make out words but would have to pause to look up definitions or think about what was written on the screen). Then it hit me: if I can barely understand what they are saying WHILE I am reading along, then there is no way in hell I would understand what is being said if there were no subtitles. Ever since I've been doing a ton of extensive reading in addition to listening exercises and I have seen a difference.

Hopefully others can back up what I've said and share their experience in regards to listening comprehension being better with lots of reading. (I think it's working for me but always like reassurance from the more experienced people out there so I know I'm using time efficiently).

In addition to all of this, when I read I definitely learn through context and get a "feel" of what sounds right. I haven't checked the numbers, but I'm sure you can get more language exposure from reading for 10 minutes vs 10 minutes of a movie.

I use my Kindle to read as well, and if a word is really bugging me I will look it up. Usually words I don't recognize are adjectives (Isabel Allende uses a lot of great descriptive words). I could care less if I don't learn some fancy word to describe something as long as I can infer what the author is trying to say. I know with time these words will stick OR at the very least I will recognize them again in books or during conversation. My passive vocabulary will always be bigger than my active. Reading seems to really develop your passive vocabulary which is essential. For the active stuff I add it to Anki if I really want to use it.

[sfuqua]

Quoting myself

Blue Belt
Re: L2 forever
NotaMar May 24, 2016 10:01 am
I did my simple little "passive vocabulary test" again. I take the 20000 most common words in Spanish, from the LIFCACH corpus, which attempts to use only headwords, but which includes proper nouns, put it into anki, scramble it and then take the first 50 words and see how my comprehension is.
I had a good run today, getting over half of the words right (excluding proper nouns). This suggests that my Spanish vocabulary is about 10000 words, which is probably true, based on how frequently I hit unknown words in print. This means I've gone from a 6-7000 word vocabulary to a 10-11000 word vocabulary since last July 30 when I started extensive reading and listening. Up until very recently, I did no special techniques to study vocabulary, just reading with a popup dictionary.

I read about 5000 pages and listened to about 5000 minutes of Spanish.

[Carmody]

Ok, here goes with the experience of an A1-A2 level French learner who has discovered reading.

I totally respect where people are coming from who mentioned the different reading styles and not looking up of words. However, I would like to suggest another option.

To date I have read and enjoyed books by:
C.S. Lewis
J.K Rowling
Saint Exupery
Gide
Sagan

With Gide and Sagan especially, I have enjoyed reading the work through 3+ times. Each time I read I underline the words I need to look up and then reread it with progressively more look-ups. I read it but it is as if I am scanning as does a computer screen when an image is being progressively scanned in. Each reading gives greater clarity and enjoyment of the text. The main thing is finding authors you really enjoy.

Now here is what no one has mentioned. I use my books for vocabulary study. Instead of lists, etc., I just open a book and review the words that are underlined. That way I see the words I did not know and review the context of the word for its meaning. A word without context is not much help, so the book is a real help.

[IronMike]

Years ago I used a method that seemed to work for me, which got me my first ever 3 (C1) in Russian reading and 2+ (halfway between B2 and C1) in listening:

I had Faulkner's The Mansion in Russian and English. I'd read a chapter of it in Russian, not looking up any words, trying to understand as much as I could. Then I'd read that chapter in English. Then I'd read the chapter again in Russian.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

It took forever, but I came away with a very good understanding of the language, and a huge appreciation for the translator who had to work those long Faulknerian sentences!

I hadn't done that method since this Faulkner novel, oh, 23-ish years ago. I may have to try this again as I have Metro 2033 and Metro 2034 in both English and Russian.

[s_allard]

Quoting myself

Blue Belt
Re: L2 forever
NotaMar May 24, 2016 10:01 am
I did my simple little "passive vocabulary test" again. I take the 20000 most common words in Spanish, from the LIFCACH corpus, which attempts to use only headwords, but which includes proper nouns, put it into anki, scramble it and then take the first 50 words and see how my comprehension is.
I had a good run today, getting over half of the words right (excluding proper nouns). This suggests that my Spanish vocabulary is about 10000 words, which is probably true, based on how frequently I hit unknown words in print. This means I've gone from a 6-7000 word vocabulary to a 10-11000 word vocabulary since last July 30 when I started extensive reading and listening. Up until very recently, I did no special techniques to study vocabulary, just reading with a popup dictionary.

I read about 5000 pages and listened to about 5000 minutes of Spanish.

This will be slightly off-topic but I don't want to let this go by. The method used here by sfuqua to "suggest" that his so-called passive vocabulary is 10000 words based on a sample of 50 is quite typical of these tests that one finds on the internet. Given that it is nearly impossible to really count a speaker's receptive vocabulary, we have to resort to counting a sample and extrapolating. I can live with that. But there is a bigger problem. What does it mean to understand a word in isolation? For example, the English verb "get" enters in to so many combinations that one wonders what does "get" mean. In Spanish, the verb "dar" forms dozens of combinations that have nothing to do with any primary sense of the verb.

What does this have to do with the topic? Although I'm certainly in favour of extensive reading and listening for purposes of enjoyment, I do think it is very inefficient in terms of developing productive proficiency, i.e. speaking and writing. I believe that if you want to improve your speaking skills, it is much more beneficial to concentrate of mastering a relatively small corpus of words but using them in great depth with native speakers. Knowing 10000 words to me means nothing to me because there is no indication what one can do with these words. In other words I believe in depth over breadth.

This means lots of intensive work for language improvement. But lots of extensive reading or listening for enjoyment. But there's a catch. The more intensive work you do, i.e. more depth, the more you enjoy the extensive stuff.

The example that always comes to my mind is a Colombian Spanish telenovela that I watched in its entirety, all 238 episodes. I loved it, but did it do a lot for my Spanish? Not really. I believe it would have been much more useful to study 5 episodes in depth.

[NoManches]

Quoting myself

Blue Belt
Re: L2 forever
NotaMar May 24, 2016 10:01 am
I did my simple little "passive vocabulary test" again. I take the 20000 most common words in Spanish, from the LIFCACH corpus, which attempts to use only headwords, but which includes proper nouns, put it into anki, scramble it and then take the first 50 words and see how my comprehension is.
I had a good run today, getting over half of the words right (excluding proper nouns). This suggests that my Spanish vocabulary is about 10000 words, which is probably true, based on how frequently I hit unknown words in print. This means I've gone from a 6-7000 word vocabulary to a 10-11000 word vocabulary since last July 30 when I started extensive reading and listening. Up until very recently, I did no special techniques to study vocabulary, just reading with a popup dictionary.

I read about 5000 pages and listened to about 5000 minutes of Spanish.

The example that always comes to my mind is a Colombian Spanish telenovela that I watched in its entirety, all 238 episodes. I loved it, but did it do a lot for my Spanish? Not really. I believe it would have been much more useful to study 5 episodes in depth.

As somebody in the middle of watching a very long Mexican tv show, and in the middle of doing a Super Challenge, I find this rather discouraging .

Do you think your results would have been closer to ideal of you still watched 238 episodes but spent a little more time "intensively watching" every 20th, 30th, or 50th show?

[iguanamon]

The example that always comes to my mind is a Colombian Spanish telenovela that I watched in its entirety, all 238 episodes. I loved it, but did it do a lot for my Spanish? Not really. I believe it would have been much more useful to study 5 episodes in depth.

He's said this before. There are so many aspects to learning a language and they are all tied in together with each informing the other. Reading and listening extensively are not "efficient". I'll grant that. There are other methods that are more "efficient", up to a point for learning vocabulary and usage. There are also intangibles involved that you just can't put your finger own. Watching 239 episodes is going to give you something through sheer repetition. Of course, there's the patrickwilken experience of being able to understand and not produce because he didn't work on that aspect.

s_allard advocates learning and mastering the core of a language. Many get upset because he talks about 300 words being roughly the size of this core. Most people miss out that he doesn't advocate only learning and mastering this core. While I agree this is important, I and most others don't have the patience, fortitude or intrinsic belief necessary to do this before allowing ourselves to have fun. Neither would I be able to srs the 5000 most common words and study the common grammar first for the same reasons. Most efficient doesn't necessarily equate to what will be most used by a learner.

When I first watched a novela in Portuguese, I had no subtitles. I was working with my tutor. She had me watch an episode first. Then watch and write down unknown words and time stamps. Then we'd go over the unknown words together. Next, I would watch again while writing a synopsis of the plot and action- one episode a week Then I would discuss the episode with her. I did this until my unknown words became very few. The novela had 79 episodes- 45-50 minutes long. The first third, my unknown words were many. The second third they started to decrease dramatically and I could review two episodes a week. The last third I was reviewing four episodes a week and had very few unknown words.

I don't believe I could have done this if I only did four or five episodes. I needed the repetition that many episodes provided. After doing this I found my listening had dramatically improved as well as my language skills because I was listening and speaking. In addition I was also reading outside the novela.

So, yes, if you just watch (listen) and just read (without doing anything), you will end up with some gaps and holes because you also need to consolidate this by speaking and/or writing to some extent and some explicit study of the grammar- you need to understand why certain constructions and usages are used in certain situations. In my experience, this makes more connections in my brain. These are the factors that get left out the most in the self-learning of languages because they require the most effort. It's relatively easy to find books to read and media to consume, but conversation and interaction with native-speakers comes harder. All kinds of factors come into play that prevent some learners from this interaction- from personality, to perceptions, to economic ability to pay for a tutor (not absolutely necessary but it can help), to discouragement with the process.

As to intensively working on something, this is fine as long as you don't get bogged down and don't move on. That's the trap that some learners can fall into when working with material intensively. They don't move on. They feel they have to suck up everything. In my years on the forums I've seen people go through a course once, then twice then srs it, then shadow it... to the point that working with the course is all they do. The irony is that after doing all this, most still have trouble reading and listening to native materials and conversation.

Much of language-learning is like a buffet. People take what they want to eat in different proportions. What's the right mix to satisfy? I don't know. I just know that a language has different aspects- speaking, writing, listening and reading. If one wants to be good at all these aspects, then, they all must be worked on to some extent. There is synergy between each aspect and this helps to make the others stronger. The mix between each aspect doesn't have to be equal, but it shouldn't be so low as to be virtually non-existent. In other words, don't expect to be good at listening if you only do it occasionally. Don't expect to be good at conversation, if you rarely do it.