HTLAL might be gone

Discuss the LLORG's and HTLAL forum's past and its future here.
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Via Diva
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Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby Via Diva » Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:54 am

Takra jenai wrote:Whenever I want something intelligent to read I grab a book by an intelligent author. I doubt they ever waste their time on forums.

Not all intelligent people write books, and even if they do, they don't necessarily get to publish it.
Just saying.
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Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby Takra jenai » Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:13 am

Via Diva wrote:Not all intelligent people write books, and even if they do, they don't necessarily get to publish it.
Just saying.

Some intelligent people write forum posts, I agree. For instance, emk or Bakunin. There are more of them, but I don't remembe their nicks. Oh, Serpent, and that lizard man, with a difficult name.
My mother was very intelligent, and she never wrote a single word. Neither did she visit a forum.

Edit
Had to check the name: iguanamon
I'm bound to forget it again.
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Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby aokoye » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:00 am

Takra jenai wrote:For me a forum is useful if I can ask a technical question, usually about some learning materials, and get an answer with good links.
I'm not that much interested in 'intelligent' discussions. Whenever I want something intelligent to read I grab a book by an intelligent author. I doubt they ever waste their time on forums.


I think it depends on the author, the forum, and the subject. Two of my hobbies are knitting and spinning (yarn). The main forum on the internet for those hobbies is Ravlery and there are actually a number of published authors/designers on there. As a result it is actually really easy to both find information from these authors but also to interact with them on a 1:1 level.

Personally like having discussions on forums as opposed to using them as a repository of links or a bibliography. I enjoy sharing my viewpoint with people and hearing others' viewpoints and while the internet is an imperfect medium for that, it is an often easily accessible one.
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Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby Takra jenai » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:22 am

aokoye wrote:I think it depends on the author, the forum, and the subject. Two of my hobbies are knitting and spinning (yarn).

Yea, knitting is always good for you. It makes you relax and intelligently prompts you to spin a yarn.
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Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby Serpent » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:35 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Polyclod wrote:
lone wolf wrote: What are we heading for? Maybe I don't really want to know.


If you want to see what we're headed for, have a peek at pretty much any Tumblr blog. Actually for your own sanity, don't.

Basically we'll have a board of SJWs sanitizing the forum of anything which could be remotely considered offensive to anyone, anywhere.

I'm all for keeping things civil. I wouldn't want a language learning forum to turn into a place for people to attack others based on their race or sexuality. But we've moved from trying to promote civility and respect to a culture of crybabies who are constantly looking for something to find offensive.

I do not understand this concept that people have an inherent right to go through their lives without being offended by something.

/rant off


I couldn't agree more. To me being offended is almost always seen as the fault of the person who said/wrote the "offensive" content. The possibility that the one who is offended could be at fault in terms of their reaction/interpretation is not entertained nearly enough. Instead we all tip-toe around trying not to offend anyone. The result is a culture of robots that must only express themselves in within a certain framework of expected prose. So now we have public relations that specialise in 'selling/dressing' public figures words in certain lights so they dare not say something that might offend some group. Marketing, manipulation and politics come to mind. Sell it to the sheep/robots. We are all in boxes. Make sure you don't act outside your box.., Neo, play along!

What makes you think people choose to feel offended? It's much more fun not to. And you seem like the kind of guys who indeed go through their lives without feeling excluded, unimportant or worthless at least once a day. But not everyone deserves such privilege, eh?

Also, that's not the first time I'm pointing out that things weren't really different on the old HTLAL, at least since emk was in charge. I'm just seeking to make that official (just like the old HTLAL forbids racism officially), and that was the only thing I asked for when rdearman offered me a moderator position. If the simple condition of no victim blaming isn't met, I'm out.

Let me also remind you that political correctness is mostly offtopic here.
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Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby basica » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:46 am

Serpent wrote:What makes you think people choose to feel offended? It's much more fun not to.


I dunno if people can choose to be offended in the same way they can choose what they want for breakfast - but some people indeed are overly sensitive. I worked in customer service for a while and when customers leave you might say "have a nice day" or "take care" or a range of other things but I've had people get in my face angry telling me "How dare you tell me to have a nice day" or if I asked if they were already a customer (so I could retrieve their details without having to ask them 20 questions to get this information again) they would bite my head off asking "why does that matter!?" or "that's none of your business!".

Obviously this isn't the case all the time, or even most of the time - I'm simply saying that it is a real thing for some people to be overly sensitive by anyone's measure.
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Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby Serpent » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:02 pm

I'd say the real problem here is the attitude to retail/service workers, and especially a lack of respect for the fact that they're generally required to say or ask certain things, regardless of their own or other people's opinion.

The way I see it, the only choices we have in this regard are to fake feeling or not feeling offended, or to dismiss the genuine feeling of offense (which isn't always possible or easy). And I won't deny that women/LGBTQ+/people of colour sometimes fake it too, although I see it more often from their privileged counterparts who get defensive of their right to say what they want.
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Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby neofight78 » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:31 pm

There are two extremes:

1) Everything is offensive! Every time I'm hurt or upset it's someone else's fault.
2) I should be able to say anything I like, people should be responsible for their own feelings!

Of course, there is a spectrum in between.

Be respectful and don't make personal attacks fall smack in the centre. I am sure the Mods here are perfectly capable of distinguishing between something that is inadvertently offensive and direct abuse. I am also sure they will be able to respond accordingly.

As I said previously, ad hominem arguments add nothing to a debate, whereas being respectful towards others allows and encourages more people to participate. The rules being used/suggested are common across the net, and there's a good reason for it.

I am amazed (actually perhaps not, this is the internet after all) that people think that somehow this is oppressive. For me this thread has fully entered straw man territory and created a pretty fruitless debate. So I am now bowing out...
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Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby rdearman » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:35 pm

I would like to remind people that the rules of this forum are the same at the HTLAL.com which can be read in full here:
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16197&PN=1

With two exceptions.
1) No sexual discrimination is tolerated
2) The rule of APPLICABLE LAW on this site is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I don't believe this thread is adding any value and until such time as some agreement with FX is reached, or the Moderators agree to move forward without him I'm going to lock this thread down.
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Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby Serpent » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:52 pm

bryan wrote:
lone wolf wrote:
iguanamon wrote:I would like to give FX at least a couple of more weeks to get in touch.


He already had at least five years to get things sorted. The servility of some people towards some guy who set up a forum a few years ago, a rather trivial task for everyone with some technical skills, is beyond my comprehension.


I think people in general are creatures of habit and are often change averse. Even when that change would be a positive one.

If the group wants to give him a couple more weeks, that's fine. But personally, I've given up on FX. I don't buy the "it's summer, people are way" argument. In my experience you really have to go out of your way to not be in touch and not respond for 2 weeks. Especially when nearly everyone has a phone with the ability to effortlessly check email.


Back on topic, one important point here is that moving vs losing the archive is currently a false dichotomy. FX has already paid for the hosting and the old site should remain online for a few years. He can always close it for new posts and redirect people to the new one. And I'm sure that if at one point the interest in preserving the archive becomes mutual, he'll be welcome to cooperate.
(this is not based on any specific conversations with other mods, just the general attitude to the problem of his absence)

edit: oops, I started writing this when the thread wasn't locked yet!
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