The end of TAC?

Discuss the LLORG's and HTLAL forum's past and its future here.
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Brun Ugle
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Re: The end of TAC?

Postby Brun Ugle » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:34 am

I disagree that long term consistency challenges favor learning one language at a time. I used to think that it was better to learn languages one at a time, but I'm finding its actually better for me to have several going at once. It gives me more variety and thus less burnout. I see from tracking on the 6WC that I probably wouldn't do much more German per day even if it were the only language I studied. I can only take so much. But fortunately, after 45 minutes or so of Assimil, I can watch a telenovela in Spanish or something.

I think a consistency challenge requires you to think about your life and how to fit languages into it. That's why the Add 1 challenge encourages you to choose a low goal when choosing how many hours a day to study. If your goal is too high, then on the days it's hard to fit in studying, you might skip it all together. If your goal is only 15 minutes, that's almost always possible to squeeze in.

Part of my "Gathering Challenge" is consistency. I decided to get in 15 minutes per day on each language I'm currently studying and it isn't that hard. It just means having things that can be done in short time slots on busy days, having things that can be done when the Internet doesn't work, having things I can do when I feel sick, etc. (However, I do have a little vacation scheduled in when I will let all my streaks fall to zero, but it's all part of the plan.)
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Re: The end of TAC?

Postby garyb » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:57 am

Nothing wrong with studying one language at a time, and what I've seen, the TAC has never favoured one at at time or several at at time. As I say it's so open that it's basically whatever you want it to be. But I can see the point: making and sticking to long-term plans is a lot harder when several language are involved.

The before-and-after videos and committing to a study schedule seem like great ideas for a shorter-term thing like the 6WC but I don't see them being workable in a one-year period, especially for several languages when like I say it's hard to plan and priorities are more subject to change.

One thing that's put me off the challenges, especially longer-term ones, is that they seem like putting the cart before the horse. It's like trying to set your circumstances based on what you're studying, rather than adapting your studies to your circumstances. If you commit to studying French and Spanish for a year, but halfway through the year you end up moving to Germany and sensibly decide to focus on German, the challenge is a failure, has become irrelevant, or you adapt it to your new goals and it becomes a different challenge.

We discussed this a bit on "How do your (long-term/short-term) goals impact your learning strategy?"; basically my idea was that while learning a language to a high level is a long term commitment, planning too long-term can cause you to lose sight of changing priorities and keep investing time into one language when it would be more practical to change plans and focus on another. Of course, some people's lives are steadier than others: if you have a long-term relationship with a speaker of a language and/or long-term intentions to live in a country, long-term goals make more sense.
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Re: The end of TAC?

Postby Serpent » Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:00 pm

I meant specifically the add1 thing you mentioned with committing to a certain amount of time a day, whether it's 30 min or several hours. But then again add1 doesn't last the whole year. Committing to 30 min daily for a year is hard even for those learning only one language.
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Starting a French study group?

Postby tomgosse » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:53 pm

Bonjour mes amis. Hello my friends.

As we approach the end of the year, I'm wondering if it's time to seriously think about setting up a French study group for newbies. A lot of ideas have be floated, and I am considering starting, or helping to start such a group. I'm thinking of having it start in mid-January, after we all recover from the "holidays". But I think now would be a good time to start setting it up.

My first question is about newbies (like me), or people who have not run a group before (again, like me) taking on this task. If I remember correctly, there was a discussion on the old forum about this, and the consensus was against it. So, administrators and moderators, what do you think?

If I get positive feedback I'll start a new post on the Language Challenges & Teams board.

EDIT: I just notice that a French Team already exists: Team French Thread - Le Fil d'équipe français. If my proposal is duplication other's efforts I apologize.
Last edited by tomgosse on Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting a French study group?

Postby emk » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:26 pm

tomgosse wrote:My first question is about newbies (like me), or people who have not run a group before (again, like me) taking on this task. If I remember correctly, there was a discussion on the old forum about this, and the consensus was against it. So, administrators and moderators, what do you think?

If you're thinking about something like "Team Beginner French", and if you don't plan for it to be part of TAC, I'd personally suggest the following. This is partly based on my experiences with Team Egyptian, and partly on watching TAC over the years, and partly on observing what sorts of forum things die off and what sorts thrive. This is just my personal opinion, not any sort of "official" advice! :-)

  1. The team should probably have at least two "leaders" who are regularly active on the forum, and who are unlikely to give up on French in the immediate future. Otherwise, there's a danger that the team will disappear very quickly.
  2. You're welcome to ask for native speakers (or advanced students) who'd be willing to act as "godparents" and answer questions. (When FSI puts together teams of teachers, they often use several natives and one very advanced non-native, to help with stuff that natives might take for granted.)
  3. There should be a team thread under "Language Challenges & Teams", with a list of members, a list of godparents (etc.), and a list of useful resources the team has found. It should also explain who can join the team and how (if the size isn't capped).
  4. It would be good to plan some kind of fun monthly activities in a team thread.
  5. Everybody who is in the team should subscribe to the other team members' (French) logs.
  6. As for size, I don't really have a good feeling about how that would work with non-TAC teams. It's probably best to cap it at fewer than 10 active members, but I suppose you could move people to "inactive" status and add new active members as time goes on.
What do people think? Would this be a reasonable checklist for people doing non-TAC teams? Could we improve it?
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Re: Starting a French study group?

Postby tomgosse » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:50 pm

emk wrote:
tomgosse wrote:My first question is about newbies (like me), or people who have not run a group before (again, like me) taking on this task. If I remember correctly, there was a discussion on the old forum about this, and the consensus was against it. So, administrators and moderators, what do you think?

If you're thinking about something like "Team Beginner French", and if you don't plan for it to be part of TAC, I'd personally suggest the following. This is partly based on my experiences with Team Egyptian, and partly on watching TAC over the years, and partly on observing what sorts of forum things die off and what sorts thrive. This is just my personal opinion, not any sort of "official" advice! :-)

  1. The team should probably have at least two "leaders" who are regularly active on the forum, and who are unlikely to give up on French in the immediate future. Otherwise, there's a danger that the team will disappear very quickly.
  2. You're welcome to ask for native speakers (or advanced students) who'd be willing to act as "godparents" and answer questions. (When FSI puts together teams of teachers, they often use several natives and one very advanced non-native, to help with stuff that natives might take for granted.)
  3. There should be a team thread under "Language Challenges & Teams", with a list of members, a list of godparents (etc.), and a list of useful resources the team has found. It should also explain who can join the team and how (if the size isn't capped).
  4. It would be good to plan some kind of fun monthly activities in a team thread.
  5. Everybody who is in the team should subscribe to the other team members' (French) logs.
  6. As for size, I don't really have a good feeling about how that would work with non-TAC teams. It's probably best to cap it at fewer than 10 active members, but I suppose you could move people to "inactive" status and add new active members as time goes on.
What do people think? Would this be a reasonable checklist for people doing non-TAC teams? Could we improve it?

Thank you for your response. It's a great checklist.

The only problem that I have with TAC (Total Annihilation Challenge) is it sounds, to me, that the "winner" is the last person or team standing. I don't want other people or teams to fail! :)

I'm looking forward to more input. :lol:
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Re: The end of TAC?

Postby Montmorency » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:02 pm

@emk's suggestions seem to be a good model for any future similar proposed team, not just the one that Tom is specifically proposing here. And I like Tom's idea of a support group / study group rather than a "total annihilation challenge" team.

I know it's "only" words (ha!), and I realise that the "challenge" is meant to be to oneself and not towards other people, but even so, just the thought of it has always felt stressful to me. The other aspect of the challenges has always been the feeling that if one fell behind, one was "letting down the team", which is again a stress I personally can do without. If however, one drops out of a support group, or just falls behind a bit, this is just life getting in the way; it happens. It's just a different way of looking things and we each have our own preferences.
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Re: The end of TAC?

Postby Brun Ugle » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:39 pm

Emk's suggestions are brilliant as always. I really like the idea of having both natives and advanced learners as godparents. A non-native can sometimes explain things better because they understand why it's confusing. Plus they can provide a little inspiration. If anyone wants to start a group like Tomgosse's French group for Norwegian, I'd be happy to volunteer as non-native godmother.
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Re: The end of TAC?

Postby Cavesa » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:11 am

Is is possible than that the TAC is dead and it isn't necessarily a bad thing as so many htlalers actually prefer not to "compete". The study groups might work fine. Perhaps, the tomgosse's one might be an incentive for our forum to get a French subforum, similar to the Spanish one.

Other than that, would anyone want to be my study buddy? Something like common goals, keeping in touch and motivating each other (like "hey, I he hasn't given up despite having a bad week, neither should I!"), and so on. Someone to possibly practice with, chat, perhaps speak?

There is a shared log of a Polish and Swedish learner going on these days and they look like progressing fine, that is an option too.

So, do you wanna be my teammate? (sung in whichever Anna voice you prefer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzGlYedmx8U )
Are you trying to get your intermediate Spanish to a higher level?
Preparing for a DELE?
Are you a beginner Italian learner?
Struggling with German? (or learning it easily?)

We might find some great overlaps and help each other.
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Re: The end of TAC?

Postby rdearman » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:03 am

Cavesa wrote:Is is possible than that the TAC is dead and it isn't necessarily a bad thing as so many htlalers actually prefer not to "compete". The study groups might work fine. Perhaps, the tomgosse's one might be an incentive for our forum to get a French subforum, similar to the Spanish one.


Just a quick comment on the "highly experimental Spanish sub-forum". We started this sub-forum with a very dedicated set of people who wanted to have a Spanish only forum and were willing to be very active within the sub-forum. One of the lessons learned from the old HTLAL was the non-english sub-forums didn't get much traffic. The Spanish only forum has also seen this trend happening here. Although there are 28 topics live, only 6 were created in October. This would seem to indicate a downward trend in usage, and the argument for more dedicated language sub-forums wouldn't really stack up.

As one of the main proponents for dedicated sub-forums I'd find it hard to argue for more sub-forums.
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